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3D Printed Guns
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Author:  BartSimpson [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

grainfedprairieboy wrote:
If you make bazookas readily available to the general public you would see a large increase in the use of bazookas to settle neighbourly or workplace disputes, to terrorize people for political, ideological or narcissistic purposes, they would be used by gangs and criminals and there would be plenty more accidental discharges where innocent bystanders are killed.


While the proliferation of RPG ownership would invariably lead to some interesting misuses I don't think they'd be a big factor in crime. I own a Solothurn 20mm recoiless rifle and while it sounds scary and dangerous the fact is that it's bloody heavy, awkward, and ungainly. It might be useful in a war (not really, but let's just say) but no one, and I mean no one is going to use one for knocking over a gas station.

Like with .50 caliber rifles the criminal use of these weapons in the US is (to the best of my knowledge) just about zero.

An RPG is lighter and more portable but it's still awkward and the ammunition is heavy. It's a good weapon for starting a fight but it's never useful for ending one.

Were they legalized I believe that most purchasers would buy them as novelties.

As to the criminals? Criminals have been found importing these things from China...

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Yee )

...and even though these things are in criminal hands they're still not being used because, really, they're not that useful.

RPG's are popular with the moslem nutbar crowd because the random effectiveness of these weapons allows for the "Insh'allah" principle - because the serious fundamentalist guys literally point and pray. They're not at all popular with Westerners because they're not so terribly accurate.

Author:  BartSimpson [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

FOG: There's a series of sci-fi books on Amazon by an author named Chris Kennedy which feature enormous 3d printers that build three-mile long warships. That's taking your thoughts to the nth degree, but it's a neat idea.

Author:  Freakinoldguy [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

BartSimpson wrote:
FOG: There's a series of sci-fi books on Amazon by an author named Chris Kennedy which feature enormous 3d printers that build three-mile long warships. That's taking your thoughts to the nth degree, but it's a neat idea.


The RCN could use one of those printers about now. :P

It's an interesting concept and I suppose that if you had every piece done individually you could build alot of the components with the current technology. I guess if I was a member of the machinist's union I'd either be sweating my job or be taking some upgrade courses on autocad like programs, just in case.

Author:  Delwin [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

This was published yesterday:

Next To Hit The Roads: 3D Printed Cars
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ptc/2014/09 ... nted-cars/

There are better videos on youtube with interviews with the engineers, etc

It should be in full production soon and will be very customizable.

Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

BartSimpson wrote:
grainfedprairieboy wrote:
If you make bazookas readily available to the general public you would see a large increase in the use of bazookas to settle neighbourly or workplace disputes, to terrorize people for political, ideological or narcissistic purposes, they would be used by gangs and criminals and there would be plenty more accidental discharges where innocent bystanders are killed.


While the proliferation of RPG ownership would invariably lead to some interesting misuses I don't think they'd be a big factor in crime. I own a Solothurn 20mm recoiless rifle and while it sounds scary and dangerous the fact is that it's bloody heavy, awkward, and ungainly. It might be useful in a war (not really, but let's just say) but no one, and I mean no one is going to use one for knocking over a gas station.

Like with .50 caliber rifles the criminal use of these weapons in the US is (to the best of my knowledge) just about zero.

An RPG is lighter and more portable but it's still awkward and the ammunition is heavy. It's a good weapon for starting a fight but it's never useful for ending one.

Were they legalized I believe that most purchasers would buy them as novelties.

As to the criminals? Criminals have been found importing these things from China...

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leland_Yee )

...and even though these things are in criminal hands they're still not being used because, really, they're not that useful.

RPG's are popular with the moslem nutbar crowd because the random effectiveness of these weapons allows for the "Insh'allah" principle - because the serious fundamentalist guys literally point and pray. They're not at all popular with Westerners because they're not so terribly accurate.


Thing is Bart, the weapons you've mentioned are all pretty tough to get which is the biggest reason they aren't frequently used and not because of any operational impracticality. If you could just print one off and print functional ammunition at your whim in the privacy of your home for a few bucks my opinion is there would be an explosion (pun intended) in use.

Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

BartSimpson wrote:
herbie wrote:
Small plastic part that served as a gate on my mini-truck's shift mechanism broke and fell out. I could've glued it together, 3D scanned it and replicated it. Instead of hunting on the Net for months, bargaining and paying for a whole assembly to get shipped here.
Ten billion things you could make and what's all the Internet discussion?
A gun.Gun.
Gun.
Gun.
Make a gun.


Partly because there's people who have a vested interest in making 3D printing illegal.

See, none of these 3D printed firearms are illegal to produce using traditional methods in the jurisdictions where they're being produced.

The only fracas is that a 3D printer is being used for a legal purpose.


Yesterday yet another wingnut in China committed mass murder of children with a knife.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/27/world ... .html?_r=0

Also in Newfoundland of all places, a child at a soccer camp was stabbed on the field in front of a horrified crowd by a 19 year old spectator. The attack is considered random.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundl ... -1.2778579

In both cases imagine if these perpetrators lived in an environment where access to guns is easier and you know the death tolls would be considerably higher.

I own a large collection of firearms but Sandy Hook changed my perspective and I can no longer in good conscience support any gun laws that don't try to do everything reasonable in keeping any weapons out of the hands of psychopaths, criminals, the irresponsible, etc.

Are both of you so ideologically driven that you can't see a safety issue with people one day being able to print off working firearms with the same effort of warming a pizza pop in the microwave?

Author:  herbie [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

Hmm yeah someday.
How about today? Can anyone even theorize a method to print a two wire telephone cord on a 3D printer? I mean one that actually worked?
The immediate problem is some idiot is gonna buy the first $99 3D printer at Walmart*, print himself a shotgun and take his own arm off up to the elbow.
And that may be his legal right do so, even his legal right to sue when it happens, but what if you're the poor sucker waiting in line behind him in the Emergency ward?

* and Bart will probably know his name... LOL

Author:  Xort [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

grainfedprairieboy wrote:
Thing is Bart, the weapons you've mentioned are all pretty tough to get which is the biggest reason they aren't frequently used and not because of any operational impracticality.
If they were good enough to be more effective in crime, criminals would buy them, and the act of wanting and buying them would create demand that would be filled. They however are not.

Demand would create availability. Even if they had to get the weapons from the US Attorney General or a sitting Senator.

Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

Xort wrote:
If they were good enough to be more effective in crime, criminals would buy them, and the act of wanting and buying them would create demand that would be filled. They however are not.

Demand would create availability. Even if they had to get the weapons from the US Attorney General or a sitting Senator.


Nuclear, biological and chemical (NCB) agents have been actively hard sought by terrorists around the world for decades yet none have knowingly acquired them. Why not? According to your supply/demand market forces theory there should be a vibrant trade in these arms.

The fact of the matter is demand DOES NOT necessarily dictate supply and that applies to not only NBC materials but also to Carl Gustavs and RPGs.

Author:  Xort [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

grainfedprairieboy wrote:
Nuclear, biological and chemical (NCB) agents have been actively hard sought by terrorists around the world for decades yet none have knowingly acquired them. Why not? According to your supply/demand market forces theory there should be a vibrant trade in these arms.
Terrorists don't have much money and the number of terrorists is low when put beside the number of criminals.

The market demand isn't very large.

If terrorists were as well funded and populous as the drug trade they would be holding CRBN materials.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is demand DOES NOT necessarily dictate supply and that applies to not only NBC materials but also to Carl Gustavs and RPGs.


The fact of the matter is that small demand doesn't create supply.

Author:  herbie [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

There's talk they could also use organic material to 3D print medical parts and even transplant organs.
Teenage boys and lonely old men can hardly wait....
Sure honey, we can wait until we're married. Just sit still on that scanner chair for a little longer, okay?

Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

Xort wrote:
Terrorists don't have much money and the number of terrorists is low when put beside the number of criminals.

The market demand isn't very large.

If terrorists were as well funded and populous as the drug trade they would be holding CRBN materials.


The fact of the matter is that small demand doesn't create supply.[/quote]

You're in a dream world if you believe drug cartels just avoid NBC materials or think terrorist orgaisations are poor and that's why they can't buy it. Some of the terrorist groups are operating in funds measured in the 100s of millions with their own labs as part of their infrastructure and can easily afford it.

Demand and demonstrated ability to pay has not resulted in supply.

Sometimes maxims don't fit in neat little boxes.

Author:  DrCaleb [ Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

Freakinoldguy wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
Everyone who thinks that this nightmare is restricted to plastic weapons that will wear out quickly, bad news.

Texas company makes metal gun with 3-D printer

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/08/tech/inno ... metal-gun/

So how long will it be before some ingenious psycho or psycho country acquires the blueprints for. let's say the Abrams tank and decides to build it like the old Johnny Cash song says:

As the matter of fact, I'm thinking about getting me a printer and doing just that. Then them assholes who won't signal are gonna be in for a major surprise. ROTFL


Why would we ban something because it might possible have bad uses? 3D printing a gun is a generally bad idea, although the metal printing process has a lot of advantages over plastic.

But what about the good uses? 3D printing the plastic knob on your your appliance, that you can only get from the factory for more than it costs to buy a new appliance?

Or 3d printing new skin grafts for burn victims?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/printalive-3d ... ml#w1UaUMA

3D printing your own clothing? Who wouldn't want a recreation of "David" by Michelangelo for the garden?

Knee jerk reactions are not a reason to try to put toothpaste back in the tube. The technology is out, and as Bart hinted at - there are plans out there to build a device to 3d print your own 3d printer. ;) Good luck supressing that information, because all that does is make it more popular.



Speaking of knee jerk reactions where did you get that I wanted to ban these printers? I merely pointed out that this technology is open to severe abuse by people who shouldn't or wouldn't have weapons otherwise.


Sorry if I worded that poorly; I was agreeing with you and disagreeing with the article. But I do disagree with your idea that 3d printers somehow give people access to guns when they shouldn't have. People who shouldn't have guns already have access to them, it's not the fault of the 3d printer.

If you want to get someone badly hurt, just 3d print them a gun and let them shoot it a couple times.

Author:  BartSimpson [ Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

grainfedprairieboy wrote:
Thing is Bart, the weapons you've mentioned are all pretty tough to get which is the biggest reason they aren't frequently used and not because of any operational impracticality. If you could just print one off and print functional ammunition at your whim in the privacy of your home for a few bucks my opinion is there would be an explosion (pun intended) in use.


You'd still have to fill your printed munitions with functional explosives or else they'd be little more than novelties. You can't just print explosives (for now) so I'm really not going to worry about it.

Author:  Xort [ Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3D Printed Guns

grainfedprairieboy wrote:
You're in a dream world if you believe drug cartels just avoid NBC materials or think terrorist orgaisations are poor and that's why they can't buy it. Some of the terrorist groups are operating in funds measured in the 100s of millions with their own labs as part of their infrastructure and can easily afford it.
The drug cartels are pushing hundreds of billions.

Terrorists/rebels are small time, most often puppets of governments that spend money to disrupt unfriendly governments or as regional checks.
Quote:
Demand and demonstrated ability to pay has not resulted in supply.
Sometimes maxims don't fit in neat little boxes.

Small demand isn't enough, large demand has proved that it does.

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