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Omnibus Climate Change thread
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Author:  Zipperfish [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

bootlegga bootlegga:
Scape Scape:


Interesting concept, although I think a lot of Canadians would be okay with our cities being up to 8 degrees warmer. :wink:

Seriously though, I think this option might work for the downtown cores of some larger cities in Canada, but most Canadian city blocks are largely comprised of single family homes and townhouses, not large apartment buildings like European cities are.

Is there a North American equivalent for our large spread out cities?


I moved to the country from Vancouver for a lot of reasons, but traffic was high on the list. Everyone was frustrated with traffic, but there is simply no easy solutions. Building more roads induces demand, exacerbates urban sprawl and makes cities less livable from a human standpoint.

Public transport is great but has its own limitations. Same for incentivizing things like biking and walking.

At the same time, you can't swing a fish in Vancouver without hitting a high-rise they're in the middle of building, so you know it's just going to get worse.

Author:  herbie [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

Building roads is not bad. Building more urban roads with the idea they'll 'solve traffic problems' is.
Building them to access somewhere to live other than the Lower Mainland is a great idea.

Author:  bootlegga [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Interesting concept, although I think a lot of Canadians would be okay with our cities being up to 8 degrees warmer. :wink:

Seriously though, I think this option might work for the downtown cores of some larger cities in Canada, but most Canadian city blocks are largely comprised of single family homes and townhouses, not large apartment buildings like European cities are.

Is there a North American equivalent for our large spread out cities?


I moved to the country from Vancouver for a lot of reasons, but traffic was high on the list. Everyone was frustrated with traffic, but there is simply no easy solutions. Building more roads induces demand, exacerbates urban sprawl and makes cities less livable from a human standpoint.

Public transport is great but has its own limitations. Same for incentivizing things like biking and walking.


I sometimes question the term induced demand, because it assumes all traffic is single drivers in their own vehicle, when the reality is that a third to half of traffic is commercial traffic delivering stuff to grocery stores, shopping malls, gas stations, cafes, restaurants, etc.

So as long as population grows, so too will the need for wider roads, otherwise people aren't going to be able to buy groceries, clothing, furniture, or even cappuccinos without that truck traffic.

I think the trick is convincing people to take transit in stead of driving, but cities are often too cheap to run their transit systems at levels that will convince people to make that switch. Here in Edmonton, most long distance bus routes go through the downtown core and can take much longer to get residents where they need to go.

For example, I can spend an hour and a half on three buses to get to work, or I can drive in 30 minutes. Where is the incentive for me to switch? I already don't have enough time in my day as it is - and God forbid if one of my kids has a doctor's appointment. Then I need to spend an hour on the bus to pick them up and another hour to get them to the appointment.

The reply I often here is "You should live close to where you work." Well, as someone who has changed careers three or four times in my life (and had several different jobs in each career), that would entail moving every couple years, and with the cost of real estate, that isn't reasonable either.

I want to do my bit for the environment, and I do so whenever I can, but Canadian cities, governments and our infrastructure do not make it easy to go without a car. I suppose if this was an easy problem, it would have been solved long ago...


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
At the same time, you can't swing a fish in Vancouver without hitting a high-rise they're in the middle of building, so you know it's just going to get worse.


That's why I said the 'Superblock' idea might work in some larger Canadian cities, just not all of them.

Author:  Scape [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread


Author:  raydan [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

herbie herbie:
Building roads is not bad. Building more urban roads with the idea they'll 'solve traffic problems' is.
Building them to access somewhere to live other than the Lower Mainland is a great idea.

We have problems up-keeping the roads and infrastructure we already have and it will probably only get worse.

Author:  CDN_PATRIOT [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

bootlegga bootlegga:
I think the trick is convincing people to take transit in stead of driving, but cities are often too cheap to run their transit systems at levels that will convince people to make that switch. Here in Edmonton, most long distance bus routes go through the downtown core and can take much longer to get residents where they need to go.


Yeh. Transit isn't a viable option in most places. When I lived in and around Toronto, it wasn't that bad. I relied on transit two different times for stints of 6 months when I was between vehicles. I had use of rapid bus transit that got me to the subway, and from there it was easy.

bootlegga bootlegga:
For example, I can spend an hour and a half on three buses to get to work, or I can drive in 30 minutes. Where is the incentive for me to switch? I already don't have enough time in my day as it is - and God forbid if one of my kids has a doctor's appointment. Then I need to spend an hour on the bus to pick them up and another hour to get them to the appointment.


Here in Barrie, our transit system has been and always will be a mess. Two years back when I still had my previous car (and didn't work for a shop), I dropped my car off at a garage that was an 8-minute drive from my apartment. It took me 1 hour 10 minutes to get back home, using two buses and getting stuck at the terminal for a half hour because one bus was late. Our buses here are every half hour, and if they run late, they just park and let the clock go round so that they get back to the terminal at the next quarter hour.

bootlegga bootlegga:
The reply I often here is "You should live close to where you work." Well, as someone who has changed careers three or four times in my life (and had several different jobs in each career), that would entail moving every couple years, and with the cost of real estate, that isn't reasonable either.


It takes me about 20 mins or less to get to work. I use a 400-series highway for about 7km, then some back roads. If I had to use transit, it would take me two city buses to get to the smaller terminal at the GO station down by the waterfront, then switch to a GO bus to take me to the next town where I work. Close to $7.00 one way, and would take well over an hour at best.

$14 per day for five days of the week would be $70 per week to go to work. I spend $65 every four weeks on fuel for my car.

Public transit can't hold a candle to the power of the car, unless I was back in Toronto, and even then would still not be as quick.

-J.

Author:  Thanos [ Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

Transit is also gonna take a big hit over the next few years due to COVID. A lot of their former ridership will go back to driving themselves to work in order to avoid being stuck like sardines in a 50-foot metal tube with god-knows-who might be sick.

I worked in downtown Calgary for several months back in 2013. In that small span of time, during the summer no less, I caught three different colds/flus. Each on on the heels of the previous one. And I was taking transit to get there in order to avoid the insane morning rush and the obscene parking lot fees. Let's just say I learned the hard way because I vowed after that to never take the bus or train ever again, not if that's what's going to happen to me. I suspect others already thought the same back then, and thanks to COVID the number of transit-avoiders like us has probably multiplied by a factor of ten or more.

I, and no one else either, is obligated to put our health in jeopardy in order to satisfy the transit-centric mania of today's urban planners and city councils. :evil:

Author:  CDN_PATRIOT [ Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

Thanos Thanos:
I, and no one else either, is obligated to put our health in jeopardy in order to satisfy the transit-centric mania of today's urban planners and city councils. :evil:


If they want more people to use public transit, they have a LOT of work to do. Transit needs to be faster, more efficient, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

When I took public transit on a regular basis up until I finished college, it was much cheaper than it is now. The low cost of using the system kind of made up for the time involved in getting to where you need to go, and you accepted this. Owning my first car opened my eyes and showed me how slow and inefficient transit really is. A bus ride across town (where I lived at the time) that took a 40 minutes could now be done in less than 10 minutes in my car (outside of rush hour).

Every year (not counting 2020/2021 due to the pandemic) I take the GO train from Barrie to Toronto a couple of times for conventions or trade shows. With the extra stations they've added, it takes about TWO HOURS (warm months) to cover that, and longer in the winter when the train's doors freeze. My friends and I agreed that we're not going to bother with the train anymore. It costs $30.00 round trip now (was $19.00 when I first started using the train), making it less cost efficient than a car. The next time we go down to Toronto for an event, I'm going to drive us down to the top of the subway system, and we'll split the small parking fee three ways (which isn't much) and then pay the paltry TTC fare.

-J.

Author:  DrCaleb [ Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
Thanos Thanos:
I, and no one else either, is obligated to put our health in jeopardy in order to satisfy the transit-centric mania of today's urban planners and city councils. :evil:


If they want more people to use public transit, they have a LOT of work to do. Transit needs to be faster, more efficient, and a hell of a lot cheaper.


See, Edmonton has this figured out. They are taking the mostly underground downtown LRT, and putting it above ground, either kicking people out of their homes and running the LRT beside busy roads; or taking over the 4 lane roads, deleting the parking on both sides, running two tracks down the middle and reducing to two lanes with no parking for the businesses left behind.

Now, you sit at some intersections for 10 minutes with the barriers down while you watch the flashing <- signal and no turning on a red light. On the rare occurrence when the barriers lift and there is a green turn signal, there is time for five cars to turn, before the next train comes through. Hope you didn't stop on the tracks. 8O

So it's far better to fight a cage match for a parking spot, get lucky obtaining an expensive reserved parking pass, or take the train that very efficiently blocks traffic. And they recently revamped the whole bus schedule just to keep us on our toes!

Author:  herbie [ Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

$1:
We have problems up-keeping the roads and infrastructure we already have and it will probably only get worse.


Only weeks ago the Trans-Canada from Lytton to Spences Bridge was shut down because of fires burning on both sides. This weekend it's shut down because it's pissing rain and there's a mudslide danger. Trees all gone to hold soil on the hillsides.

Author:  CDN_PATRIOT [ Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

DrCaleb DrCaleb:
See, Edmonton has this figured out. They are taking the mostly underground downtown LRT, and putting it above ground, either kicking people out of their homes and running the LRT beside busy roads; or taking over the 4 lane roads, deleting the parking on both sides, running two tracks down the middle and reducing to two lanes with no parking for the businesses left behind.


Here in Barrie, there was an opportunity many years ago to solve the transit problem well before it was an actual problem. The first time I lived here was from 1990-1999. In 1991-1992, the city built a new transit terminal downtown to replace the old one, which was too small and too cramped. The south end of town was barren, but there was talk of expansion and a lot of prime real estate.

The GO train and CN Rail were still using an existing rail line through town, and the city had a prime opportunity to expand service and integrate with the provincial services. Instead, they stopped the transit expansion at the new downtown terminal, chose to accommodate buses instead of rail, causing a huge mess. The GO train service was removed (it came back many years later), CN Rail left (and ripped up the track from the waterfront and onwards north), and the Barrie Transit system was privatized, then run by PMCL Lines.

The city expanded quickly over the 1990's and early 2000's, and until the GO train service eventually came back, commuters jammed the highways, and travel across the city of Barrie via transit became beyond ridiculous. Add to the fact that most of the bus drivers don't seem to want to go over 40 km/h even in 60 km/h zones, and you have a service that isn't viable. Late evening service also got changed, and when city council realigned the bus routes several years back, it made it even more difficult to get around.

The city will be building a new transit terminal soon next to the waterfront GO station (where it SHOULD have been built long ago!) in an effort to connect to the train and other services more efficiently. This should have been done 20 years ago, and service in general needs to be more often than 30 minutes.

Barrie is considered a transit hub for Simcoe County and beyond, with the new LINX system bringing passengers from other, smaller towns in the region. Problem is, this city can't handle it because nothing has been done in regards to infrastructure over the years to support this hub plan. Every city council in the last two decades talks about transit, but then does nothing save for the odd announcement when the province or feds kick in some money. The usual response from council on transit is, "We're working on that." which later becomes, "There's no money for that." even though the same council spent $5 million to renovate a section of downtown (a project no one wanted), and $1 million more for random art installations on some of the city's rooftops.

The priorities of some politicians boggles my freaking mind.

-J.

Author:  Scape [ Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

BUILDING THE CLIMATE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
$1:
The world is more fucked than the United States. And we’re pretty fucked, so that’s saying a lot. Perhaps there’s a way to mitigate this mess by playing upon our worst instincts as a nation and the competitiveness that drives the world. Today we take an alternative view of our response to climate change through the lens of the most dispassionate and powerful observer in the world: The U.S. Military. It’s known for decades that the planet is fucked. And they’ve been preparing in plain sight.


Author:  Tricks [ Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

The united states is part of the world, even though they often forget it. If the USA is fucked, and the world is more fucked, then they have a cumulative fuckedness to them.

Author:  bootlegga [ Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

DrCaleb DrCaleb:
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
Thanos Thanos:
I, and no one else either, is obligated to put our health in jeopardy in order to satisfy the transit-centric mania of today's urban planners and city councils. :evil:


If they want more people to use public transit, they have a LOT of work to do. Transit needs to be faster, more efficient, and a hell of a lot cheaper.


See, Edmonton has this figured out. They are taking the mostly underground downtown LRT, and putting it above ground, either kicking people out of their homes and running the LRT beside busy roads; or taking over the 4 lane roads, deleting the parking on both sides, running two tracks down the middle and reducing to two lanes with no parking for the businesses left behind.

Now, you sit at some intersections for 10 minutes with the barriers down while you watch the flashing <- signal and no turning on a red light. On the rare occurrence when the barriers lift and there is a green turn signal, there is time for five cars to turn, before the next train comes through. Hope you didn't stop on the tracks. 8O

So it's far better to fight a cage match for a parking spot, get lucky obtaining an expensive reserved parking pass, or take the train that very efficiently blocks traffic. And they recently revamped the whole bus schedule just to keep us on our toes!


Between this and other initiatives like dropping playground zones everywhere around the city, dropping speed limits on most roads to 40 km/h, etc. it's kind of hard to disagree with the right wing talking point of the 'war on cars'.

Personally, it's the LRT at-grade in major intersections that annoy me the most. I'm all for LRT, and actually bought my home where I did because of the planned LRT line (and good transit routes), but at the latest open house, the plan shows that they will be using at-grade rail in several major intersections along the route, which will mean traffic tie-ups for people not using transit (like near Southgate and NAIT right now).

To make things worse, city council decided to re-design the transit network and it now takes my wife more than an hour to get downtown for work. Guess who is trading her bus pass for a vehicle? And then the 'geniuses' downtown wonder why approximately 80% of people in my subdivision chose personal vehicles over transit. :idea:

Author:  Zipperfish [ Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Omnibus Climate Change thread

Yeah, "induced demand" to me sounds like one of these quasi-science conjectures economists are famous for. I can certainly see the logic behind the argument, and there's evidence to support it. But it can't viably be used as a "one-size-fits-all" response to urban planning like it is now, for the reasons bootlegga points out--increased urban commercial traffic with increased urban density, for example.

And transit solutions are great too. There's no doubt that they take an immense weight off the roads. But they have limits too--as bootlegga again points out.

It seems that small electric cars could fill a big gap. Cheap, small electric cars. Remote working is good too--that removes an enormous burden.

It may well be that the idea of a personal vehicle in a big city has simply had its day. I guess I'm getting old, but the idea that I couldn't hop in my car tomorrow and drive to Texas for shits and giggles makes me sad.

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