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Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges
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Author:  N_Fiddledog [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

BeaverFever wrote:
Listen to your own half-baked conspiracy: immigration is part of a grand conspiracy to fund social programs. But then in the same breath you say the immigrants ate coming to used the social programs. Which is it, are they coming here to pay for them or coming here to use them?


And again, do you ever listen to yourself?

I claimed:

"The left believes they can't finance social programs without increasing the population."

Now, see if you can figure out what's wrong with your reply...

Time's up. Not to worry, I'll explain it to you. First: it's not a conspiracy theory. Second I never claimed it was mine. I claimed the idea was yours: the left's. That's where I heard it and still often hear the idea that if the population remains stagnant the economy can't thrive. In fact Doc just said it. The Businesses of the right want the cheap labor. We hear from the celebrity left from time to time that they're worried about who will cut their lawn, clean their house and such. The social programmers of the left worry about who's going to finance pensions, medical services and such.

This is basic stuff, Beave. You're supposed to know this.

Author:  Freakinoldguy [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

DrCaleb wrote:
Unless Canadians, and western countries in general make more babies, the only way to increase population is through immigration. And Canada still take in more immigrants from Europe and Asia than from Africa, by a wide margin.


Yes we do and I don't think anybody objects to us bringing in families from anywhere in which the bread winner is skilled and going to be a benefit to the country. What people are upset about is the "irregular" the unskilled border jumpers and the thousands of very much less than skilled Syrian immigrants being given priority along with the offer being made by our PM to every ne're do well and scofflaw that Canada's open for business and everyone no matter what your background or who you are is welcome.

As callous as it sounds there's a simple fix for all this, only take extremely limited "refugees" and "asylum seekers". Then increase the intake of legal immigrants because they have the potential to become an asset to the receiving country immediately rather than having to wait for generations.

Unfortunately those things are unlikely to happen because between this gov't, the EU and UN have decided that waves of illegal human migration to developed countries is a great idea and all developed countries should become the receiving depots for this phenomenon.

I may be wrong but i'd say this sudden overwhelming desire to accept refugees and hordes of asylum seekers has less to do with humanitarian concerns and more to do with the UN's he was misquoted "wealth redistribution" program.


As for all the people who oppose illegal, irregular or mass migrations being called racist, nothing could be farther from the truth. Race has nothing to do with it. What people like me oppose is the policy of our gov't bringing in hundreds of thousands of people who are for the most part unskilled, unable to speak the language and unwilling to move to places where they won't be able to form enclaves that resemble their former countries.

And Doc this isn't aimed at you I just thought this would be as good a place to put it as any.

So, if you look back far enough you'll notice we had this conversation years ago and even back then I said I'm pro immigration and that I didn't give a shit who they were or what their race was so long as they came through the gate legally, contributed to our society and didn't become a burden on the system. So, if thinking that way is the new standard for a racist, then so be it.

Author:  herbie [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

Freakinoldguy wrote:
herbie wrote:

Come on, a little effort guys. Suppose some of you ex Navy types can't find the
'men stimsta wow'
??


I know I'll probably be sorry but I've just got to ask. What the fuck is 'men stimsta wow'?


Watch that old classic "The Sandpebbles" w Steve McQueen (you'll like it 93% Rotten Tomatoes) teaching Chinese helper the engine room.
Main steam stop valve...
Running joke in school shop class in the late 1960s, every time teacher showed the OFF or safety kill some Chinese classmate would pipe up "Ahh... men stimsta wow" :D

Author:  Freakinoldguy [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

herbie wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
herbie wrote:

Come on, a little effort guys. Suppose some of you ex Navy types can't find the
'men stimsta wow'
??


I know I'll probably be sorry but I've just got to ask. What the fuck is 'men stimsta wow'?


Watch that old classic "The Sandpebbles" w Steve McQueen (you'll like it 93% Rotten Tomatoes) teaching Chinese helper the engine room.
Main steam stop valve...
Running joke in school shop class in the late 1960s, every time teacher showed the OFF or safety kill some Chinese classmate would pipe up "Ahh... men stimsta wow" :D


Thanks. [B-o]

I've watched that show numerous times and even had a crush on Candice Bergen for awhile but to be honest I never caught the pigeon English the coolies spoke in the engine room.

Author:  DrCaleb [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

Freakinoldguy wrote:
What people are upset about is the "irregular" the unskilled border jumpers and the thousands of very much less than skilled Syrian immigrants being given priority along with the offer being made by our PM to every ne're do well and scofflaw that Canada's open for business and everyone no matter what your background or who you are is welcome.


I don't like illegal immigration any more than the next guy, but - once again - refugees aren't illegals. And the refugee system is separate from the immigration system, so there is no 'giving them priority'.

I really admire the propaganda machine that perpetuates these myths, they seem to be doing it well.

Author:  N_Fiddledog [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

DrCaleb wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
What people are upset about is the "irregular" the unskilled border jumpers and the thousands of very much less than skilled Syrian immigrants being given priority along with the offer being made by our PM to every ne're do well and scofflaw that Canada's open for business and everyone no matter what your background or who you are is welcome.


I don't like illegal immigration any more than the next guy, but - once again - refugees aren't illegals.


Border jumpers are. I don't care what Justin and Ahmed are telling you.

Author:  Freakinoldguy [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

DrCaleb wrote:
Freakinoldguy wrote:
What people are upset about is the "irregular" the unskilled border jumpers and the thousands of very much less than skilled Syrian immigrants being given priority along with the offer being made by our PM to every ne're do well and scofflaw that Canada's open for business and everyone no matter what your background or who you are is welcome.


I don't like illegal immigration any more than the next guy, but - once again - refugees aren't illegals. And the refugee system is separate from the immigration system, so there is no 'giving them priority'.

I really admire the propaganda machine that perpetuates these myths, they seem to be doing it well.


Of course refugees aren't illegals but saying that it's a different system is just muddying the waters because if you go far enough back the funding comes from the same place. The taxpayers.

Oddly enough refugees receive gov't assistance just like immigrants but the difference is that with refugees you don't have the choice of the brightest and the best from each country like you do with immigrants.

Quote:
What is the difference between an immigrant and a refugee? The terms migrant and refugee are often used interchangeably despite the fact that there are definitive differences between the two.

A migrant is a person who consciously makes a choice to leave their homeland and seek a better life in another state. These individuals or families can take the time to learn about the country to which they intend on relocating and prepare themselves as much as possible for the journey. While the process varies from country to country, it usually involves screening, pre-departure training, and obtaining work permits. The process can take months, if not years, and migration has become more common in the last two centuries.

According to the 1951 Refugee Convention, a refugee is a person who “owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.”

This definition falls under international law, and therefore a refugee that arrives on foreign soil looking for safety and claiming refugee status cannot be deported immediately. Their case will be reviewed before there is a chance they are sent back their homeland, as it must be considered whether their safety is in jeopardy. This is a United Nations convention that was ratified by 144 countries.

Not all migrants are refugees, but sometimes refugees can fall under the category of a migrant. Knowing the difference between an immigrant and a refugee is especially important for international law and domestic law. Immigration policies and requirements typically only apply to the country that established them. Basically, they are different from country to country and are categorized under domestic law. For example, the application process for migrating into the United States is a different application process than applying to Japan.

However, a refugee is protected by international law, therefore, while legal documentation can be lacking, countries have an obligation to abide by these laws. Even the countries that didn’t ratify the convention are still expected to respect it, because it falls under the protection of basic human rights.

There are still similarities between the two, which is why people might confuse them. In both cases, each party will have to either assimilate or find some way to adapt to life in a new country. They will face a shock in culture, the workforce and language. Entering a new country, whether by choice or due to persecution, will always be a frightening process.

Either way, despite the difference between an immigrant and a refugee, both groups deserve a chance at feeling a sense of security within their lives.


https://borgenproject.org/difference-be ... a-refugee/

After reading this I wonder just how many of the unskilled Middle Eastern "refugees" we or Europe took in were by definition real "refugees" or for that matter the human wave wending it's way through Mexico from Honduras? These people chose the place they were going and most would have zero proof that their lives are in danger or they were victims of persecution which means that alot of them are coming here whether we want them or not and they just don't want to be bothered with actual immigration process.

I'm sorry but, the 1951 UN Charter on refugees is being abused by the very organization that created it. They're now allowing anyone who wants to get a better life to jump the queue and claim refugee status and if you don't believe me all you have to do is look at the giant wave of humanity that's wending it's way from Honduras to the US, all with the help of the United Nations.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/11/1024882

So, to say we aren't having refugees foisted on us is crap especially when organizations and groups are helping these people to jump the queue. My guess is that these activists and the UN have decided to use the Scientology approach to getting their own way. Which is to overwhelm a gov't and it's agencies with sheer numbers so it becomes far to time consuming and costly to review all these peoples cases individually. So, the only logical thing to do becomes to let them all in because otherwise the cost would be astronomical and would put a real crimp on any budgets.

Author:  DrCaleb [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

Freakinoldguy wrote:
Of course refugees aren't illegals but saying that it's a different system is just muddying the waters because if you go far enough back the funding comes from the same place. The taxpayers.

Oddly enough refugees receive gov't assistance just like immigrants but the difference is that with refugees you don't have the choice of the brightest and the best from each country like you do with immigrants.


The cases for refugees and immigrants are heard by two different bureaucracies. They are different systems, regardless of who funds them.

And we give refugees refuge for the same reason we fund women's shelters, and shelters for youth. To protect the vulnerable. We don't first determine if they are of use to us before we protect them.

Freakinoldguy wrote:
Quote:
This definition falls under international law, and therefore a refugee that arrives on foreign soil looking for safety and claiming refugee status cannot be deported immediately. Their case will be reviewed before there is a chance they are sent back their homeland, as it must be considered whether their safety is in jeopardy. This is a United Nations convention that was ratified by 144 countries.


https://borgenproject.org/difference-be ... a-refugee/


Now perhaps you will stop with the 'border jumpers jumping the queue' BS?

Freakinoldguy wrote:
After reading this I wonder just how many of the unskilled Middle Eastern "refugees" we or Europe took in were by definition real "refugees" or for that matter the human wave wending it's way through Mexico from Honduras? These people chose the place they were going and most would have zero proof that their lives are in danger or they were victims of persecution which means that alot of them are coming here whether we want them or not and they just don't want to be bothered with actual immigration process.


You should make your own foil, out of tin. The stuff you get in the grocery store is made from aluminium and doesn't block the rays.

Freakinoldguy wrote:
I'm sorry but, the 1951 UN Charter on refugees is being abused by the very organization that created it. They're now allowing anyone who wants to get a better life to jump the queue and claim refugee status and if you don't believe me all you have to do is look at the giant wave of humanity that's wending it's way from Honduras to the US, all with the help of the United Nations.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/11/1024882


Dang, there's the false 'jump the queue' again. I had hoped since you quoted and therefore read that little bit on refugees never being illegals, that it might stop for at least the duration of one post.

Freakinoldguy wrote:
So, to say we aren't having refugees foisted on us is crap especially when organizations and groups are helping these people to jump the queue. My guess is that these activists and the UN have decided to use the Scientology approach to getting their own way. Which is to overwhelm a gov't and it's agencies with sheer numbers so it becomes far to time consuming and costly to review all these peoples cases individually. So, the only logical thing to do becomes to let them all in because otherwise the cost would be astronomical and would put a real crimp on any budgets.


Ok, so you are officially beyond the point of logic and reason. Good luck! [B-o]

Author:  herbie [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

What imaginary queue are refugees jumping? Do these world crises occur in an orderly fashion with regulated numbers they affect so we can fit them into bureaucratic models?
Damned Hungarian refugees.
Illegal Ugandan Indians.
Hordes of Vietnamese boat people.
Diseased Haitian mobs.
Syrian baby terrorists.

Should the President have called in the army to man the beaches and shoot the Cuban and Vietnamese boat people, describe it as an invasion?
Should we go back to old rules you'd like?
Sorry, we can only take 12 of you German Jews. You Sikhs can sit on that boat and starve until someone takes you back to India. Sorry the head tax is $500 you only have $499 - goodbye!

Author:  N_Fiddledog [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

DrCaleb wrote:
The cases for refugees and immigrants are heard by two different bureaucracies. They are different systems, regardless of who funds them.


And yet the same guy expresses his interest and seems to claim influence on both.

Oddly enough this is the guy in our government who keeps telling us we need and will get more of both.

Here's one example of who I'm talking about. (Get ready to shut your eyes Fifey.)

Quote:
MONTREAL—Federal Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen will head to Nigeria in the coming weeks amid an influx of nationals from that country seeking asylum in Canada in recent months.


https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/201 ... icket.html

Author:  N_Fiddledog [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

herbie wrote:
What imaginary queue are refugees jumping?


Roxham road. Look it up. It's real.

Author:  llama66 [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

I am fine with allowing people who have followed our procedures and applied for our permission to come to Canada. People who "jump" the border, should be detained and returned from whence they came. You shouldn't be rewarded for bad behavior.

Author:  herbie [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

Refugees do not need "permission" they are seeking asylum. They apply for refugee status when they get here. THEN we decide if we grant refugee status, not before.
Canada doesn't really have an illegal immigrant problem at all, some people who've overstayed visitor and work visas, a handful of those border jumpers that didn't turn themselves in and apply for refugee status.
The rest are either obeying the law or doing something there is no law against. If you row your boat across the river and report to customs, you aren't breaking the law. If you claim refugee status, they won't toss you out until your case is considered, that's the law as we made it.

Author:  BeaverFever [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

N_Fiddledog wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
Listen to your own half-baked conspiracy: immigration is part of a grand conspiracy to fund social programs. But then in the same breath you say the immigrants ate coming to used the social programs. Which is it, are they coming here to pay for them or coming here to use them?


And again, do you ever listen to yourself?

I claimed:

"The left believes they can't finance social programs without increasing the population."

Now, see if you can figure out what's wrong with your reply...

Time's up. Not to worry, I'll explain it to you. First: it's not a conspiracy theory. Second I never claimed it was mine. I claimed the idea was yours: the left's. That's where I heard it and still often hear the idea that if the population remains stagnant the economy can't thrive. In fact Doc just said it. The Businesses of the right want the cheap labor. We hear from the celebrity left from time to time that they're worried about who will cut their lawn, clean their house and such. The social programmers of the left worry about who's going to finance pensions, medical services and such.

This is basic stuff, Beave. You're supposed to know this.


And who do you think is going to fill all those jobs and pay all those taxes in a shrinking aoageing population? What’s your solution?

Author:  BeaverFever [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Trudeau's immigration numbers boost poses many challenges

Timely:

Quote:
Canada’s refusal of Jewish ship emboldened Hitler, Trudeau says during formal apology

Published November 7, 2018

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau formally apologized Wednesday for a shameful episode in Canada’s history, when this country turned away more than 900 German Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi terror and persecution.

Canada’s 1939 refusal to grant asylum to the refugees on the MS St. Louis ocean liner was not only a dereliction of moral duty but also helped embolden Adolf Hitler as he set about murdering millions of Jewish people, Mr. Trudeau said.

“[Hitler] watched as we refused their visas, ignored their letters and denied them entry,” the Prime Minister told the House of Commons.

Story continues below advertisement

“There is little doubt that our silence permitted the Nazis to come up with their own final solution."

In May 1939, the St. Louis left Germany with passengers who included more than 900 Jewish German citizens seeking sanctuary. These refugees were barred from disembarking at the ship’s first destination in Cuba and then denied entry into the United States and finally Canada due to the Canadian government’s discriminatory “none is too many” immigration policy towards Jewish people, the Prime Minister’s Office said in a summary of the episode.

The Jewish passengers returned to Europe where many were condemned to concentration camps, with 254 killed during the Holocaust.

“To harbour such hatred and indifference towards the refugees was to share in the moral responsibility for their deaths,” Mr. Trudeau said.

“We apologize to the 907 German Jews aboard the MS St. Louis, as well as their families,” the Prime Minister told the Commons.

“We also apologize to others who paid the price of our inaction – whom we doomed to the ultimate horror of the death camps.”

Canada’s refusal to accept the St. Louis passengers took place more than six months after the infamous Kristallnacht in November 1938 where storm troopers and Hitler Youth burned hundreds of synagogues, smashed thousands of shop windows and killed dozens of Jews. About 30,000 people were sent to concentration camps, the first large cohort of the millions who would be murdered.

Story continues below advertisement

Mr. Trudeau also warned of an “alarming rate” of discrimination and violence against Jewish people today.

“According to the most recent figures, 17 per cent of all hate crimes in Canada target Jewish people – far higher per capita than any other group,” the Prime Minister said.

“Holocaust deniers still exist. Antisemitism is still far too present. Jewish institutions and neighbourhoods are still being vandalized with swastikas,” he said.

He cited the recent killing of 11 people and wounding of six others at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh.

“We must guard our communities and institutions against the kinds of evils that took hold in the hearts of so many, more than 70 years ago, for they did not end with the war," Mr. Trudeau said.

The Prime Minister said the “long overdue” apology to the passengers of the St. Louis cannot erase the pain suffered by these refugees or those murdered in the Holocaust or their descendants. He said, however, he hopes it helps those hearing the apology to heal.

Story continues below advertisement

“More than 70 years ago, Canada turned its back on you,” he said to Jewish people.

“But today, Canadians pledge, now and forever: never again."


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... -refugees/

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