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Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver
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Author:  Winnipegger [ Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

BeaverFever wrote:
The Martin/Chretien austerity years were tough on citizens. It should not become the new normal. There is no need for a nation with sovereign currency to ever balance a budget.

OMG! You are the enemy. Citizens have fought at least my entire life to balance the budget. Chrétien/Martin finally achieved it, and taught others how to do it. But you want to deliberately destroy it.

BeaverFever wrote:
“Government debt” is actually the value of bonds purchased by Canadians...it is not “wasted” money

You actually believe that? Don't you. The vast majority of bonds are held by banks and other major institutions. Institutions that screw over average citizens on their own. It doesn't benefit Canadians. AT ALL!

BeaverFever wrote:
Justin was stupid to promise a balanced budget

Anyone not capable of balancing a budget is not qualified to govern a country. Or province, or city.

Government debt results in a few things.
  • debt service charges (interest) that costs taxpayer money but does not go to any government services
  • banks have less money available to loan to business, so stifles economic growth
  • inflation. Which means all money you have saved in a bank account, or stuffed in a mattress, is worth less. This steals money from average citizens.
  • governments are tempted to print money to pay bills. Which results in more inflation.
  • future generations have to pay for current spending, resulting in stifling the economy for generations to come

Author:  BeaverFever [ Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Winnipegger wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
The Martin/Chretien austerity years were tough on citizens. It should not become the new normal. There is no need for a nation with sovereign currency to ever balance a budget.

OMG! You are the enemy. Citizens have fought at least my entire life to balance the budget. Chrétien/Martin finally achieved it, and taught others how to do it. But you want to deliberately destroy it.


Well I don’t know how old you are but the whole concept of consistently balancing the budget only became popular in the Ronald Reagan years. And it’s not average citizens who have been pushing the balanced budget agenda it been the business lobby and anti-government righties.

BeaverFever wrote:
“Government debt” is actually the value of bonds purchased by Canadians...it is not “wasted” money

You actually believe that? Don't you. The vast majority of bonds are held by banks and other major institutions. Institutions that screw over average citizens on their own. It doesn't benefit Canadians. AT ALL![/quote]

You must not have any savings in RRSPs, RESPs, or participate in a pension plan. But most Canadians do and therefore benefit directly and indirectly from bonds. And let’s not forget the benefits of all the schools, hospitals, bridges, sewage plants, etc that this borrowed money pays for.

Quote:
BeaverFever wrote:
Justin was stupid to promise a balanced budget

Anyone not capable of balancing a budget is not qualified to govern a country. Or province, or city.


Then almost nobody in human history has ever been qualified. Also explain to me how western civilizations of Europe and North America became the most advanced and prosperous civilizations in history, considering none have ever consistently balanced a budget and almost all have consistently racked up debt for most of recent history? In fact history shows that our first world civilizations only exist BECAUSE OF massive government spending and debt.

Quote:
Government debt results in a few things.

debt service charges (interest) that costs taxpayer money but does not go to any government services


As noted that’s paid to Canadians. Anyone with any kind of savings or pension benefits from that.

Look let me put this simply: if the government is running a deficit, then by definition it is putting more money into the economy than it is taking out of it from collecting taxes. If it was running a surplus, that would mean it’s taking more in taxes than it’s giving back to Canadians. And those debt service payments reflect the time value of money for the government services the principal amount paid for up front. And in this low interest rate environment they are practically nothing.

Quote:
]banks have less money available to loan to business, so stifles economic growth
. Ummm no. Not even close. I can’t even guess what you’re trying to say here but buying government bonds and lending to business are 2 totally different enterprises, one doesn’t subtract from the other and nobody’s forcing the banks to buy government bonds. .

Quote:
inflation. Which means all money you have saved in a bank account, or stuffed in a mattress, is worth less. This steals money from average citizens.
. Government spending would only cause inflation if the economy were operating at full capacity, which rarely happens.

Quote:
governments are tempted to print money to pay bills. Which results in more inflation.
Printing money on its own can cause inflation but that doesn’t happen just “to pay bills”. The last time western governments went on a printing spree was during the economic meltdown of 2007-2008 and it helped reverse the recession because they actually wanted inflation then.


Quote:
future generations have to pay for current spending, resulting in stifling the economy for generations to come


1) Future generations won’t want to inherit crumbled schools and hospitals and failing sewer systems

2) If it’s perfectly acceptable for a person to finance a house over time instead of having to pay in full immediately why is it not acceptable for a government to do the same? Unlike the person, the government is immortal and has guaranteed perpetual income. It’s the perfect borrower.

3) The economy and the tax base always grow in the long-term so future generations will have more wealth available, therefore will not be “stifled” by past spending

4) Interest rates are at all-time historic lows. We are probably better positioned than future generations to borrow for investment at the best possible rate.

Author:  Winnipegger [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

BeaverFever wrote:
Well I don’t know how old you are but the whole concept of consistently balancing the budget only became popular in the Ronald Reagan years. And it’s not average citizens who have been pushing the balanced budget agenda it been the business lobby and anti-government righties.

I was in high school in the late 1970s, in university in the early 1980s. During that time citizens in Canada called for balanced budgets. This is before Ronald Regan. Regan was inaugurated in January 1981. Citizens in Canada complained about government wasting money, and expecting we the taxpayers to pay for it. How deep was the debt, and you expect us to pay for it?

BeaverFever wrote:
Winnipegger wrote:
Anyone not capable of balancing a budget is not qualified to govern a country. Or province, or city.


Then almost nobody in human history has ever been qualified.

That's right. Now you're beginning to understand why voters are so cynical.

BeaverFever wrote:
Also explain to me how western civilizations of Europe and North America became the most advanced and prosperous civilizations in history, considering none have ever consistently balanced a budget and almost all have consistently racked up debt for most of recent history?

Throughout thousands of years of history, European civilization engaged is rabid war. They stole from each other. Civilizations have come and gone so often it's hard to keep track. Minoan civilization dominated the Mediterranean from 2,700BC, declining in 1,450BC, and finally falling in 1,100BC. Egypt dominated for a while. Bronze Age collapse in 1,200BC resulted in all Western civilization collapsing, and there's no clear reason for it. Their economic system just collapsed. This resulted in desperate people raiding what was left. Fall of Minoa was triggered by a massive volcanic eruption on the Aegean island of Thera (now called Santorini) but Bronze Age Collapse was so many centuries later that they cannot be linked. After civilization started up again, Egypt dominated for a while. Then ancient Rome. Then the Dark Ages. Then...then...then...

Through all this, war was treated as a profitable venture. Enemy cities were sacked, pillaged. War expenses paid for by loot taken from the loser. If they didn't get enough loot, they took slaves, sold them for profit. White people took white people as slaves. The idea that war is expensive didn't start until World War 1, the first industrialized war. NAZIs in World War 2 took loot, they even took gold fillings from victims of death camps. This was continued policy of European war since before recorded history. And some recorded history that goes back 15,000 years. The last ice age ended 11,000 years ago, so that's before the end of the last ice age. When the current king/emperor/sultan/etc screwed up the nation's finances, he just sent his military to raid some other country and steal what they have.

Medieval history is relatively recent compared to all that. Very often Medieval European nations would screw up their finances. The king would bring in Jews to establish a sound banking system, and fix the nation's finances. This would continue until everything was running smoothly, then some poor sap would complain "why aren't we running deficits?" The Jews would be blamed for some perceived wrong and kicked out. Then the country would screw up their finances, and run the country into bankruptcy again. This went on for hundreds of years.

The Knights Templar established the first ever traveller's cheque. They established castles, a nobleman who wanted to fight in crusades in the Holly Land would go to a castle of the Knights Templar, deposit a sum of money, in exchange would receive a letter. The nobleman could go to a Knights Templar castle near the Holly Land, hand them this letter to get his money back. As I said, the first ever traveller's cheque. This was the first international banking system. The Knights Templar got rich from this. At that time the Pope had an army, ran the Vatican as a country. The Pope and King of Spain joined their armies to attack the Knights Templar, kill them all off and steal their wealth. The raid was a coordinated attack on Friday, 13 October 1307. The myth of Friday the 13th being unlucky came from that day.

Western civilization has a long history fucking-up finances. It's gone on for multiple millennia. The Great Depression of the 1930s was not the first depression; read about the 1800s. But those depressions (plural) were nothing compared to the Bronze Age Collapse. More recently there was the US financial melt-down of 2008.

Modern civilization cannot just send the army to steal wealth from neighbours. So way Western civilization survived this long is no longer allowed.

Author:  bootlegga [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

I believe this like I believe, "the check's in the mail."

Author:  Thanos [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

We still steal from each other as much as we did in the robber baron days, or when the Roman army was sent out to take everything they could get their hands on from the locals. Now it's called banking, short-term shareholder profit, and corporate welfare.

Author:  BRAH [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Wait, the budget will not balance itself? 8O

Author:  Winnipegger [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

BRAH wrote:
Wait, the budget will not balance itself? 8O

R=UP

Author:  Winnipegger [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Thanos wrote:
We still steal from each other as much as we did in the robber baron days, or when the Roman army was sent out to take everything they could get their hands on from the locals. Now it's called banking, short-term shareholder profit, and corporate welfare.

Yes, they will steal money from taxpayers. However, there's a limit. If government takes too much, then any increase in tax rate will suppress the economy so much that total revenue to the government actually goes down. Tax rates during Mulroney years effectively hit that maximum; government couldn't increase tax rates any further, because doing so wouldn't raise any more money. So what do they do then? Mulroney's solution was take as much as he could personally, stuff his pockets, then walk away and leave the next administration to deal with the mess.

If we continue running deficits, expect tax rates will increase as high as they were under Mulroney.

Author:  Thanos [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Certain Liberals are still obsessed with Brian Mulroney the same way the crazy GOP are with Hillary Clinton, even in light of multiple investigations that proved he did nothing illegal as well as his successful lawsuits against those who falsely accused him.

Seriously, your case could be much better made without resorting to that tactic, not to mention no longer continuing on that the Chretien/Martin austerity era was some kind of a golden age when in reality it was nothing but hardship for the people who ended up paying the harsh costs for the collapse in government services. Hell, I used to be a cold-blooded conservative that agreed with all that spending cut dreck but even I came around when I saw that whatever gains were made weren't worth the suffering people went through or the damaged infrastructure that the austerity obsession had caused.

Author:  Winnipegger [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Mulroney era demonstrated how high taxes can get.

As for Mulroney himself...you believe what you want. Mulroney made a preemptive lawsuit that prevented the RCMP from completing their investigation. Smart tactic. But winning a lawsuit doesn't mean he was innocent.

And keeping spending within your means is *NOT* austerity. Spending in the 21st century was *NOT* austerity. Due to the mess Mulroney left, finances were so extreme that austerity was necessary. When the deficit was slain and the debt coming down, some spending was restored. Taxes were cut, and spending restored. But do not expect the same reckless spending as the Mulroney era, or the administrations before him; that's how we got in that mess.

Author:  Thanos [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

The conservative anger at Mulroney was for continuing the spending and tax hikes that had begun in earnest under Pierre Trudeau, who most Liberals still regard as a saint even though it was his belligerence with both Quebec and the West that nearly destroyed the country altogether.

Not that this matters much to the here-and-now anymore. Too much of this nit-picking over history that can never be changed and we'll end up like the Americans that are still at each others throats over the things that happened back in the hippie days. I will say though that excessive cuts and austerity are the worst thing that can happen, even worst than the so-called debt & deficit crises that somehow manage to make things like austerity look better in comparison. It's not, and thinking so is just a delusion.

Author:  BeaverFever [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

Winnipegger wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
Well I don’t know how old you are but the whole concept of consistently balancing the budget only became popular in the Ronald Reagan years. And it’s not average citizens who have been pushing the balanced budget agenda it been the business lobby and anti-government righties.

I was in high school in the late 1970s, in university in the early 1980s. During that time citizens in Canada called for balanced budgets. This is before Ronald Regan. Regan was inaugurated in January 1981. Citizens in Canada complained about government wasting money, and expecting we the taxpayers to pay for it. How deep was the debt, and you expect us to pay for it?

BeaverFever wrote:
Winnipegger wrote:
Anyone not capable of balancing a budget is not qualified to govern a country. Or province, or city.


Then almost nobody in human history has ever been qualified.

That's right. Now you're beginning to understand why voters are so cynical.

BeaverFever wrote:
Also explain to me how western civilizations of Europe and North America became the most advanced and prosperous civilizations in history, considering none have ever consistently balanced a budget and almost all have consistently racked up debt for most of recent history?

Throughout thousands of years of history, European civilization engaged is rabid war. They stole from each other. Civilizations have come and gone so often it's hard to keep track. Minoan civilization dominated the Mediterranean from 2,700BC, declining in 1,450BC, and finally falling in 1,100BC. Egypt dominated for a while. Bronze Age collapse in 1,200BC resulted in all Western civilization collapsing, and there's no clear reason for it. Their economic system just collapsed. This resulted in desperate people raiding what was left. Fall of Minoa was triggered by a massive volcanic eruption on the Aegean island of Thera (now called Santorini) but Bronze Age Collapse was so many centuries later that they cannot be linked. After civilization started up again, Egypt dominated for a while. Then ancient Rome. Then the Dark Ages. Then...then...then...

Through all this, war was treated as a profitable venture. Enemy cities were sacked, pillaged. War expenses paid for by loot taken from the loser. If they didn't get enough loot, they took slaves, sold them for profit. White people took white people as slaves. The idea that war is expensive didn't start until World War 1, the first industrialized war. NAZIs in World War 2 took loot, they even took gold fillings from victims of death camps. This was continued policy of European war since before recorded history. And some recorded history that goes back 15,000 years. The last ice age ended 11,000 years ago, so that's before the end of the last ice age. When the current king/emperor/sultan/etc screwed up the nation's finances, he just sent his military to raid some other country and steal what they have.

Medieval history is relatively recent compared to all that. Very often Medieval European nations would screw up their finances. The king would bring in Jews to establish a sound banking system, and fix the nation's finances. This would continue until everything was running smoothly, then some poor sap would complain "why aren't we running deficits?" The Jews would be blamed for some perceived wrong and kicked out. Then the country would screw up their finances, and run the country into bankruptcy again. This went on for hundreds of years.

The Knights Templar established the first ever traveller's cheque. They established castles, a nobleman who wanted to fight in crusades in the Holly Land would go to a castle of the Knights Templar, deposit a sum of money, in exchange would receive a letter. The nobleman could go to a Knights Templar castle near the Holly Land, hand them this letter to get his money back. As I said, the first ever traveller's cheque. This was the first international banking system. The Knights Templar got rich from this. At that time the Pope had an army, ran the Vatican as a country. The Pope and King of Spain joined their armies to attack the Knights Templar, kill them all off and steal their wealth. The raid was a coordinated attack on Friday, 13 October 1307. The myth of Friday the 13th being unlucky came from that day.

Western civilization has a long history fucking-up finances. It's gone on for multiple millennia. The Great Depression of the 1930s was not the first depression; read about the 1800s. But those depressions (plural) were nothing compared to the Bronze Age Collapse. More recently there was the US financial melt-down of 2008.

Modern civilization cannot just send the army to steal wealth from neighbours. So way Western civilization survived this long is no longer allowed.


To your first comment “the late 1970s” and 1981 are the same time period. Also you don’t seem to understand: if the government has run a defecit, it means they spent money that taxpayers DIDNT pay for; If the taxpayers had paid for it, there would be no deficit.

Ok so you just regurgitated a bunch of irrelevant stuff but seriously wars don’t make money they COST money. They cost LOTS of money. Wars are just giant government spending projects that rackup massive amounts of debt. But now you’re getting it....that massive government debt-fueled spending in the Europeam imperial wars, US civil war and the world wars is what made us so wealthy and advanced, spurning new inventions and new jobs and new technologies, not only compared to other countries bu in all of history. Most of the innovations you enjoy from plastics to computers to medical and pharmaceutical technologies were the products of government funded programs, many of them during the WW2 years and thereafter.

Even the Minoans, ancient Egyptians et al, despite their millennias if longevity can’t compare to the growth we’ve seen in just the ladt couple id centuries. Life at the end of the Bronze Age wasn’t terribly different from life at the beginning of the Bronze age for the average peasant citizen. However life today is radically different from life at the start of the 20th century.

Author:  newz [ Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

BeaverFever wrote:

Well I don’t know how old you are but the whole concept of consistently balancing the budget only became popular in the Ronald Reagan years. And it’s not average citizens who have been pushing the balanced budget agenda it been the business lobby and anti-government righties.

I give you someone who has never heard of Andrew Jackson.
Yeesh!

Author:  Winnipegger [ Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

BeaverFever wrote:
if the government has run a defecit, it means they spent money that taxpayers DIDNT pay for; If the taxpayers had paid for it, there would be no deficit.

Wrong. Deficit means the government spends more money than it has. Debt is the accumulation of deficits. Who do you think will pay for that debt? Taxpayers always pay.

BeaverFever wrote:
Ok so you just regurgitated a bunch of irrelevant stuff but seriously wars don’t make money they COST money.

Sorry you're having difficulty understanding. Before World War 1, European wars were always run for profit. The winner would sack and pillage cities/towns/villages of the loser. They would take anything valuable: gold, art, anything they could sell. They would ensure the winner took enough money to pay for the war, plus profit to pay the winner's government debt. Often some of the loot would be distributed among citizens of the winner to pacify the masses. NAZIs did this in World War 2, the public didn't get any of the money, but the NAZI government sure did.

You asked why the "West" has been so successful. These are the reasons. Not pretty. To succeed ethically takes a lot more work. Stealing from others may appear to be a short-cut, but also realize those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Author:  Winnipegger [ Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Justin Trudeau says vow to balance budget in 4 years is 'ver

newz wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
Well I don’t know how old you are but the whole concept of consistently balancing the budget only became popular in the Ronald Reagan years. And it’s not average citizens who have been pushing the balanced budget agenda it been the business lobby and anti-government righties.

I give you someone who has never heard of Andrew Jackson.
Yeesh!

R=UP

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