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Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand
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Author:  Scape [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

A little harsh, I would not lay the fault at the feet of the people of Afghanistan. US gave them American equipment with American training and expecting American back-up. It wasn't the people of Afghanistan who didn't put any effort into making it work, they showed up and a lot of them died by the thousands for doing so. The game was rigged from the beginning.

Author:  Thanos [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Both are true. The lion's share of the blame lies with the US though for engaging in runaway mission creep for almost 20 years. Even worse, for deluding themselves with our good ol' Western cultural supremacist mindset that quite literally makes almost all of us genuinely believe that everyone on the rest of the planet wants to be exactly like us. That's not a racial thing either, just to inform anyone getting ready to flip on me for saying it. But clearly in the Western world, especially in the US and the British-founded countries, we're trapped in a mindset that's led us to believe that we are the single archetype of any worth in the entire world, the single supreme culture, and that everyone wants to become us. And it's led the West, especially the Americans, to get brutally and repeatedly slapped across the face when we find out that there's billions out there who just want us to stay the hell away from them. It's happened over and over and over again since the end of World War Two and no one in our leadership has learned a damn thing.

Just go from 1948 onwards. The Chinese don't want to be like us, they proved it quite convincingly with their Communist revolution. Neither does half of Korea. Neither do the Vietnamese, who quite literally died in their millions to prove it. Or the Iranians, who kind of put their foot down in a very harsh way to say they didn't want their country turned into another bastion of Western commercialism, materialism, and 1970's-grade moral depravity. The Iraqis kinda/sorta didn't want it either, and it was only the factional infighting between the various ethnicities there that allowed the US to get some sort of structure built - but it all fell to pieces anyway as the Iraqis ran away as fast as they could when ISIS sprang up and took over a third of the country in a heartbeat. And now Afghanistan, where all the Taliban had to do was take a bunch of casualties they more than could afford to sacrifice and wait long-term for American fatigue/disinterest/no longer wanting to spend the money to prop the place up/etc. to do the work for them.

As for the Afghans themselves? Well, for a liar himself Lyndon Johnson was quite right when he said what's the point of sending our people to fight for a place where the local inhabitants either like the way they're already living or have no interest at all in in fighting for it? Every backwoods gangster the US puts in power that they try to turn into some sort of "founding father" with a deluge of utterly ridiculous propaganda, every paper tiger of an army they build that turns out to be good for nothing except terrorizing their own population, just proves it all over again.

And the worst part of it all? It's just going to happen all over again. As sure as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west, as reliable as a banker being an absolute gutter-rat of a crook, it is guaranteed to one day happen again. All that remains to be done is to throw a dart at a map of the world to pick the next place to be "enlightened" or "rescued from savagery" or "given the benefits of democracy". Well, that and wait in extreme anxiety for whatever pretext is used the way the Gulf of Tonkin incident or Sept 11/01 were cynically used to justify another "righteous" crusade of sheer madness. Hopefully it doesn't happen until after I've shuffled off this mortal coil. I've seen enough horror on the news channels in my lifetime that got used to validate engaging in further horror and I really don't want to have to watch a new episode of it ever again. :|

Author:  Thanos [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Admiral Mike Mullin - "(Joe Biden) got it right"

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... ssion.html

$1:
Retired Adm. Mike Mullen, the top U.S. military officer under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, who strongly supported the “nation-building” war policy in Afghanistan, now says we should have pulled out our troops a decade ago, soon after Osama bin Laden was killed.

Mullen is thus far the only senior officer from that period who has publicly admitted that the U.S. policy—and he personally—was deeply mistaken. “It’s hard to deny the evidence in front of you,” Mullen said to me in a phone interview Monday morning.

Mullen—who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from October 2007 till September 2011—first admitted his mistake on this past Sunday’s episode of the ABC News show This Week. On the show, he also gave credit to then–Vice President Joe Biden, who at the time opposed the troop surge and a switch to a nation-building strategy. Biden “had it right back then,” Mullen said, and “I give him credit for that.”

In our phone conversation the next morning, Mullen acknowledged that, back in 2009, he and all the other top officers and officials advised Obama to send 40,000 more troops to Afghanistan and to adopt a nation-building strategy. Biden was alone in calling for merely an extra 10,000 troops and to restrict their activities to training the Afghan army and fighting terrorists along the Afghan-Pakistani border. “He got it right,” Mullen said of Biden. “It would be hard to argue that [Biden’s proposal] wasn’t the right way to go.”

Mullen said that he and his fellow officers got two big things wrong. First, he said, “We underestimated the impact of corruption.”

Even at the time, Mullen stressed the importance of stopping corruption within the Afghan government. At a Senate hearing back in September 2009, a few months before Obama decided on a war policy, Mullen testified, “The Afghan government needs to have some legitimacy in the eyes of the people. The core issue is the corruption. … It’s been a way of life for some time, and it’s just got to change. That threat is every bit as significant as the Taliban.” Sen. Lindsey Graham, noting that the Taliban were gaining ground because of this corruption, asked, “We could send a million troops, and that wouldn’t restore legitimacy in the government?”* Mullen replied, “That is correct.”


:|

Author:  Scape [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Thanos Thanos:
The Chinese don't want to be like us, they proved it quite convincingly with their Communist revolution. Neither does half of Korea. Neither do the Vietnamese, who quite literally died in their millions...



Hate to pull at the thread of your argument here but... what about Taiwan? China WAS Taiwan until the CCP exterminated dissent and forced the Chinese people to be the boat people in their own country. Taiwan itself is the MODEL of a modern democratic society.

As for Vietnam Ho Chi Min begged for DECADES for help from the west yet the French and the US bombed and starved out his people. Who else was he to side with? Sorry, a lot of the problem here is hubris. The west takes what it wants and sees the locals as pawns. Actually helping takes effort.

What Afghanistan was is a massive make work program for the military industrial complex to sell uniforms and bombs and a huge money laundering operation removing money from the taxpayer and sending it directly to military contractors with the blessings of Tony Blair and Bush.

Author:  Scape [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand


Author:  Thanos [ Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

- Taiwan is a democracy now, but from 1949 thru to the early 1990's it was a one-party military dictatorship typical to that of far too many US & Western allies in the developing world, mostly because the rush for generating corporate profits in poor countries with cheap labour was as important to the Cold Warriors as building bulwarks against the Communists

- the US didn't do a lot to help France hold onto it's colonial Vietnamese possessions in the 1950's, aside from giving the French obsolete military equipment from World War Two, which the French needed for their own domestic defense commitments in France due to their own industries being gutted by the Germans during the occupation; in fact Eisenhower was against the overseas activities of the French as much as he was against what the British tried to pull off in the Suez against rising Egyptian nationalism; Eisenhower wasn't an isolationist as such, but he sure wasn't going to let the US get entangled in disgusting European adventurism just so the British and French could maintain dictatorial control over the remnants of their empires

- the Red Scare in the US in the 1950's changed the situation dramatically; even with Eugene McCarthy politically destroyed by his over-reach and disgusting behaviour during the HUAC hearings it was still political suicide for any US administration to be seen as soft on Communism; keep in mind that both Kennedy & Johnson and a huge portion of the Democratic Party in general were just as Cold War-minded as anyone in the GOP was at the time; once the Northern Vietnamese became official clients of both the Soviets and China there was no way to head off any confrontation there; as I mentioned with the reference to the Gulf of Tonkin incident the US government in it's entirety, both Administration and Congress, was just itching for an excuse to plow as much weaponry, materiel, and eventually US service personnel into South Vietnam; the major fatal flaw in their planning and theorizing was that they totally ignored the nature of Vietnamese nationalism, that the Vietnamese had been a culturally & socially unified people for centuries and that they weren't going to tolerate being divided either physically or politically in order to sate American foreign policy any more than they were going to let the French rule over them again

The Afghans are hardly as emotionally and mentally unified a people as the Vietnamese turned out to be; there's too many ethnic groups there for that kind of deep unity. That doesn't mean however that they want to be what the US or the West wants them to be. The best that can be hoped for is that the Taliban have learned that letting the country be a base for another Al Qaeda is not in their own best interest. Keep the terrorists out and the Taliban can look forward to perpetual dominance of Afghanistan without interference from the West. Aside from another terror attack on US soil there can't be much out there that would renew the American appetite to go back in there for another round.

Author:  Scape [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand


Author:  Scape [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Author:  Thanos [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

No good intentions. Just national interests. The most pleasant thing to happen would be if the Americans forever knocked it off with the crusader talk and put a damper on their incessant need to be seen as the good guys. Do it like the imperial British did - no permanent allies, no permanent enemies, just permanent interests. And that anyone who takes a shot at the US is going to get hammered back a million times worse than what they hit America with. It would be incredible cold-blooded for anyone in this age to speak that way again but at least it would be honest. In it's own brutal way gunboat diplomacy is the only diplomacy that isn't covered in lies.

Author:  Scape [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand



That was 2019.

Author:  DrCaleb [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Live: Taliban to stop Afghans going to Kabul airport

Author:  bootlegga [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Thanos Thanos:
No good intentions. Just national interests. The most pleasant thing to happen would be if the Americans forever knocked it off with the crusader talk and put a damper on their incessant need to be seen as the good guys. Do it like the imperial British did - no permanent allies, no permanent enemies, just permanent interests. And that anyone who takes a shot at the US is going to get hammered back a million times worse than what they hit America with. It would be incredible cold-blooded for anyone in this age to speak that way again but at least it would be honest. In it's own brutal way gunboat diplomacy is the only diplomacy that isn't covered in lies.


R=UP

You made a lot of good points with your last few posts and I'd rep if I could.

It's pretty obvious now that we should have smashed the Taliban in 2001/02 and left by 2003 or 2004, and let the Afghans sort themselves out, with a clear warning that allowing terrorists back in the country was going to provoke similar short term interventions.

The mission got muddled after Dubya decided Iraq needed to be invaded in 2003, and that should have been our clue to get the fuck out of Afghanistan, but at least we left (mostly) in 2014.

Author:  Sunnyways [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

The concept of nation-building should have been binned years ago. Foreigners can’t build a nation - what an arrogant idea - and look ridiculous trying. A modest degree of state assistance and repair is the best one can hope for.

Author:  JaredMilne [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

References to the failures of nation-building and foreign support for revolutions makes me wonder if there's a common thread in why some of them succeed and fail. Bear in mind I'm no expert, so take my thoughts with as many shakers of salt as you want.

For one thing, there has to be a strong, popular "local" movement requesting it for foreign intervention to succeed. The Americans fought for their independence largely on France's and Spain's dimes, but that happened because there was not only a local set of leaders who could govern effectively, but they also had a large popular base of support.

Or, consider Mexico during the Second French Intervention. Benito Juarez could claim to be the legitimate republican leader of Mexico, and he could probably command a large amount of popular support from the general Mexican populace too. The U.S. provided the Juaristas with weapons and supplies, as well as military pressure on the French, but once the Mexican Republicans won the war the U.S. didn't try to overtly interfere in Mexican affairs.

Or in World War II, where Japan and Germany both openly and blatantly declared war on the U.S. When the U.S. helped kick their asses and occupy them, the American occupation either left important national symbols in place (the Japanese Emperor) or was replacing a completely discredited regime whose replacement local leaders played a major role in constructing (Germany's modern federal system replacing the Nazi regime). And again, those countries started running a lot of their own affairs soon after the war ended.

In the first Gulf War, the West intervened at the express invitation of the Kuwaitis. Kuwait called for help, and the American-led alliance provided it. They left Saddam Hussein in charge, but with a blunt warning not to harass Kuwait again. Same thing when America fought the Barbary Pirates-the U.S. did not conquer or annex the Ottoman provinces, just gave them a blunt warning to stop fucking with the U.S. and then left them alone.

Where the hell was there any invitation to attack Iraq or Afghanistan? Nobody wanted the West there, there wasn't any viable leadership they could claim to be standing up for, and hardly any reason for the West to be there.

This is why I hope we don't intervene in Syria or Lebanon. Nobody would want us there in the first place, and how do we know who to even support?

Author:  Thanos [ Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Canadian special forces ready to evacuate embassy after Kand

Germany was always a civilized nation. Nazism has to be regarded as a ideologically-driven descent into barbarism. So destroying the Nazi state was the equivalent of rescuing an already-partial democracy and returning Germany to a path they'd been on before and were well familiar with. Japan was also a civilized state, the most advanced nation in the region, and had far much more in common with Europe/America than it did with China, Korea, or any of the other south-east Asian states. And, as you mentioned, skillful use of the existing Japanese traditions (especially making an ally out of the emperor) showed how creatively intelligent the Americans could be during that period of time. I highly doubt the same thing could happen today under similar circumstances - the ratfuckers and gaslighters at places like FOX or in MAGA wouldn't allow such awesome & constructive diplomacy to happen because it wouldn't jibe with their "only WE win all, THEY get to lose all" mentality. Have Trump in charge during the occupation of Japan and the US would have looted the place the same way the Nazis did to France from 1940-44 because that's the only way monstrous sons of bitches like that believe "greatness" can be made.

I don't know as much about Spanish-American history as I should. I suspect though that if stability in a place like Mexico was ever created by the US it would be because, just like with Germany after WW2, there are too many commonalities in both countries simply from being offshoots of Europe/Britain. For all the fussin', feudin', and fightin' the Europeans (and Americans) have done against each other over the past centuries the fact remains that all these countries & nations have so much in common that it's impossible for us to be aliens to each other. The major recurring differences today seem to be more of status of living/quality of life and not something that's effectively unbridgeable like competing religions, i.e. Christianity vs Islam. That will always be the basic reason why adventures in places like Afghanistan will always fail, the gulf between what the West and Asia see as the "proper" way to live will always be there. If Islam along with multiple thousands of years of central Asian tradition dictate how a region like Afghanistan will be in perpetuity then the Western ideas effectively lose right from the start. It might ancient and no where near as slick & flashy as the West still is but that doesn't mean a thing. That way of living is still very much alive. Comparing it to something as decrepit as the old Spanish empire near it's end, as the British and Americans tore it apart and gobbled up the important bits, is a major analytical mistake to make.

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