CKA Forums :: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double

How are you defining lucrative? I agree that minimum wage has never payed better, but it also seems that the opportunities to advance within a company from minimum wage to something better are disappearing.

DanSC DanSC:

I was being mostly sarcastic. But at the same time, minimum wage in Ontario is over $10/hr, which is twice the market rate for unskilled labour. One of the main reasons I do not support minimum wage laws is that minimum wages discourage people from trying to improve their careers. It makes it "comfy" to stay in a shitty job if you're being overpaid for it. But, back to my original point, we're seeing higher than ever turnover rates for minimum wage jobs, which indicates that people really, really must not want to do those Mc-jobs, which speaks to my point about entitlement among new entrants to the workforce.

bootlegga bootlegga:

In fairness, some times Canadians simply aren't willing to move across the country or aren't interested in a job that requires getting your hands dirty. Other times, people simply don't have the skills to get the jobs that are available.

That's not saying that I support increasing the numbers of foreign workers, but there are sometimes reasons why jobs go unfilled despite high unemployment.

Sorry Boots, not buying it. It's the old 'supply and demand' story. If business had the will to get Canadians into those jobs they would through moving allowances or training etc. For example, there are lots of jobs in Cold Lake, but no employer is willing to pay enough so that people can afford to live there. And people that have been living there have to take extra jobs to be able to afford to keep living there.

I've been paid to move to a job, trained to do the job, and been paid enough to live in my new place. That was at a time when hiring temp forgien workers was unheard of.

Right now, it's just easier and cheaper to hire a temporary worker who already has the skill set, than to move someone and train them to do the work.

What do people think would happen if we restricted immigration? Canadians wouldn't suddenly start taking those shitty low-wage jobs. All that would happen would be that fruit wouldn't get picked and hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned. The notion that immigrants take jobs from residents is patently false.

I sometimes think we could do with another Great Depression. People who lived in those times knew what work ethic was. They didn't have the sense of entitlement that has gripped the <40 demographic in North America. I think of the pictures of the high-scalers working the air hammers on the canyon walls when they were building the Hoover Dam. Those guys were hanging from a rope on a swing seat 1000' in the air in 120 degree heat, all for 75 cents an hour. And it was work they were happy to have.

Gen X and Gen Y got screwed, not by the labour market, but by being sold a model of higher education that's obsolete. Instead of the guidance counsellors in high school and their parents moving them towards areas where workers are needed (especially the trades) they were pushed to areas that are still massively over-staffed with baby boomers. I'm not sure about Canada, but in the American context that means they come out of university with a barely useful degree, tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and into a job market where they're competing against those who have held those same kinds of jobs since the 1970's.

It's less that the jobs aren't there, it's more that the school system especially is doing such a horrible job of directing new workers towards fields and career paths in which they can thrive.

Unlike 20 or 30 years ago people were willing to move across country for a J-O_B.

Not anymore...lazy Canucks with a sense of entitlement. Give me a job in my own backyard or give me that government cheque.

Author:	Lemmy [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
DanSC DanSC: How are you defining lucrative? I agree that minimum wage has never payed better, but it also seems that the opportunities to advance within a company from minimum wage to something better are disappearing. I was being mostly sarcastic. But at the same time, minimum wage in Ontario is over $10/hr, which is twice the market rate for unskilled labour. One of the main reasons I do not support minimum wage laws is that minimum wages discourage people from trying to improve their careers. It makes it "comfy" to stay in a shitty job if you're being overpaid for it. But, back to my original point, we're seeing higher than ever turnover rates for minimum wage jobs, which indicates that people really, really must not want to do those Mc-jobs, which speaks to my point about entitlement among new entrants to the workforce.

Author:	Jabberwalker [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
Lemmy Lemmy: DanSC DanSC: How are you defining lucrative? I agree that minimum wage has never payed better, but it also seems that the opportunities to advance within a company from minimum wage to something better are disappearing. I was being mostly sarcastic. But at the same time, minimum wage in Ontario is over $10/hr, which is twice the market rate for unskilled labour. One of the main reasons I do not support minimum wage laws is that minimum wages discourage people from trying to improve their careers. It makes it "comfy" to stay in a shitty job if you're being overpaid for it. But, back to my original point, we're seeing higher than ever turnover rates for minimum wage jobs, which indicates that people really, really must not want to do those Mc-jobs, which speaks to my point about entitlement among new entrants to the workforce. $10.00 /hour? ... comfy? You must live in New Brunswick. If you worked all day and all night in Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa at $10.00/hr., you would be lucky to pay the rent on a broom closet.

Author:	DanSC [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
Concerning the high turnover-rates at minimum wage jobs, what is the incentive for the employees not to change jobs?

Author:	Lemmy [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
We Gen-Xers got screwed, kinda, by the boomers, and kinda by our parents' expectations (they're boomers too) and kinda by Thanos' guidance councellor (she was a boomers too) so it was really the all same enemy: the boomers. But, on the other hand, since there were no jobs, lots of us in Gen-X (see Shep's CV above) used that as an opportunity to get educated (even over-educated). That likely paid dividends, in the long-run, in terms of career earnings. It sure did for me. I'd likely not have stuck out university for graduate degrees had there been any entry level jobs available I finished my BA. It may have taken a lot longer to start earning a paycheque but I'm sure that I've more than caught up, in terms of career earnings, by sticking it out an extra 5 years or so at university.

Author:	Jabberwalker [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
I will tell you that Gen-Xers that can do the math to design and produce the products that we manufacture (where I manufacture) are almost unknown. You were all trained to work on the la-la landscape of generating wealth out of foo-foo dust. You were all dumbed down.

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Author:	bootlegga [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
DrCaleb DrCaleb: bootlegga bootlegga: In fairness, some times Canadians simply aren't willing to move across the country or aren't interested in a job that requires getting your hands dirty. Other times, people simply don't have the skills to get the jobs that are available. That's not saying that I support increasing the numbers of foreign workers, but there are sometimes reasons why jobs go unfilled despite high unemployment. Sorry Boots, not buying it. It's the old 'supply and demand' story. If business had the will to get Canadians into those jobs they would through moving allowances or training etc. For example, there are lots of jobs in Cold Lake, but no employer is willing to pay enough so that people can afford to live there. And people that have been living there have to take extra jobs to be able to afford to keep living there. I've been paid to move to a job, trained to do the job, and been paid enough to live in my new place. That was at a time when hiring temp forgien workers was unheard of. Right now, it's just easier and cheaper to hire a temporary worker who already has the skill set, than to move someone and train them to do the work. No, I'll stick by my guns. In my field, there are tons more jobs in Toronto and Vancouver than there are in Edmonton. But for me to move would require a herculean effort because I've got a wife with a career, kids, a mortgage, etc. For me to take a leap of faith on a position that far away from home simply isn't realistic. Alternatively, I could easily get a service industry position in Edmonton if I was willing to take a 50-60% pay cut. But who is going to do that? Especially considering my hours would be all over the place instead of 8-5 Monday through Friday. Nobody, that's who. It's a whole different ballgame when you're young and single, but once you get older and have a family, uprooting everything for a job halfway across the country is much harder.

Author:	bootlegga [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
Lemmy Lemmy: What do people think would happen if we restricted immigration? Canadians wouldn't suddenly start taking those shitty low-wage jobs. All that would happen would be that fruit wouldn't get picked and hotel rooms wouldn't be cleaned. The notion that immigrants take jobs from residents is patently false. I sometimes think we could do with another Great Depression. People who lived in those times knew what work ethic was. They didn't have the sense of entitlement that has gripped the <40 demographic in North America. I think of the pictures of the high-scalers working the air hammers on the canyon walls when they were building the Hoover Dam. Those guys were hanging from a rope on a swing seat 1000' in the air in 120 degree heat, all for 75 cents an hour. And it was work they were happy to have. As a kid, I worked two service industry jobs at a time - most kids I've worked with recently are barely willing to work one.

Author:	ShepherdsDog [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
I did farm work for family mostly......my pay was room and board and a bit of spending cash for 14 hour days seven days a week(most of the time).

Author:	Freakinoldguy [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
Thanos Thanos: Gen X and Gen Y got screwed, not by the labour market, but by being sold a model of higher education that's obsolete. Instead of the guidance counsellors in high school and their parents moving them towards areas where workers are needed (especially the trades) they were pushed to areas that are still massively over-staffed with baby boomers. I'm not sure about Canada, but in the American context that means they come out of university with a barely useful degree, tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and into a job market where they're competing against those who have held those same kinds of jobs since the 1970's. It's less that the jobs aren't there, it's more that the school system especially is doing such a horrible job of directing new workers towards fields and career paths in which they can thrive. +5 Bingo. But what you forgot to mention though was that Universities have now become big business with bottom lines requiring them to put asses in the seats at the expense of the people being sold a bill of goods.

Author:	jj2424 [ Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
Unlike 20 or 30 years ago people were willing to move across country for a J-O_B. Not anymore...lazy Canucks with a sense of entitlement. Give me a job in my own backyard or give me that government cheque. Plus too many Liberal Arts grads with useless degrees . These are the same fools trying to unionize coffee shops. 7% unemployment is the new norm. Get any lower and the service takes a nose dive.

Author:	PublicAnimalNo9 [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Despite high unemployment, foreign worker numbers double
jj2424 jj2424: Unlike 20 or 30 years ago people were willing to move across country for a J-O_B. Not anymore...lazy Canucks with a sense of entitlement. Give me a job in my own backyard or give me that government cheque. Riiight, blame it solely on "lazy" Canucks. Roughly 85% of immigrants that arrive here, legally or otherwise, settle in one of the Big 3. Seems to me if immigrants were actually coming here to work, they'd settle in central Canada in droves and a lot fewer Canadians would have to move across country to find jobs. Let's face it, central Canada is where the job market is at and has been for some time now. If that's where immigrants would start settling in greater numbers, we wouldn't necessarily need to import foreign workers. After all, isn't that why we let 300,000 immigrants a year, legal or otherwise, into the country in the first place? So what friggin' good is it when they settle where the jobs aren't?

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