[fifeboy]

It all costs cash, are the Canadian people willing to have taxes raised to give the military what it needs. Please note, this is just a question, not an accusation against one side or the other, as I would like to know.

[Vamp018]

Jonny_C Jonny_C:

I'd like to see new ships built in Canada, if that's at all possible.

Nothing will ever beat a Nation who builds there own Ships of the Line, and those who build them for there Nation shall always be strong and tough with respect.

[commanderkai]

fifeboy fifeboy:

It all costs cash, are the Canadian people willing to have taxes raised to give the military what it needs. Please note, this is just a question, not an accusation against one side or the other, as I would like to know.

It'd either be tax hikes, or spending cuts. I'd rather the CPC use spending cuts and transfer the saved funds to the military budget, but yeah, that's highly unlikely, to say the least.

I guess that's why I'm a little less harsh on the CPC, considering they would be unwilling to increase taxes, even to fund the military, because it would no doubt destroy whatever political capital they accumulated. Biased, yeah, I admit it.

[bootlegga]

Gunnair Gunnair:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Or not. They make very good ships and have a better track record of marketing them than the ships we built. They also have a far superior navy so any smugness we try and show comes across as pretty damned hollow.

Frankly, I'd love to have some of their kit.

Ah come on, you know they were poking a bit of fun. I agree French equipment is top notch...

That being said, why bother? Canadians, and their government, have a hard time sticking to any goddamn procurement plan for military equipment. I'm even disappointed in Harper in this regard, although, sadly, he would still be better for the military than the Liberals and their untested leader, and the NDP.

Frankly, you have no idea what the Liberals will do. Harper put money into the military when it was both politically expedient domestically and internationally not because he and the CPC have any great love for the CAF. The fact they are cutting money at a point when capital acquisition is badly needed by all services, cutting personnel when personnel are needed, and operating budgets are shrinking is ignored by those wearing the usual Conservatives love the military blinders.

+5

Be careful now, criticism of our Dear Leader automatically means you are nothing less than a filthy socialist liberal!

[bootlegga]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Frankly, you have no idea what the Liberals will do. Harper put money into the military when it was both politically expedient domestically and internationally not because he and the CPC have any great love for the CAF. The fact they are cutting money at a point when capital acquisition is badly needed by all services, cutting personnel when personnel are needed, and operating budgets are shrinking is ignored by those wearing the usual Conservatives love the military blinders.

You're right, we don't know how Trudeau will treat the military if he becomes Prime Minister, and I do take issue with the CPC cutting the military's budget when there are still many issues with the Canadian forces that haven't been resolved, but past history of Liberal leadership in Canada in relation to the Canadian military leaves a lot to be desired, even if the Conservative leadership should be doing better as well

That all depends on how far back you look - the pre-Trudeau Liberals (40s, 50s and 60s) spent pretty heavily on defence and we maintained the largest peacetime military we've ever had under those governments. They funded made in Canada fighter planes (some indigenously and some under license - CF-100, CF-105 CF-86, CF-5), they built the biggest peacetime navy (close to 60 ships IIRC) and army we've ever had. They also had an air wing and a small division based in Europe (a large brigade by our own standards) and even armed our troops with nuclear weapons!

Admittedly that was largely because they had just fought WW2 and the Cold War was ramping up, but the fact remains they did spend very heavily on defence.

Conversely, the Conservatives under Clark and Mulroney never lived up to the 'Conservtives lover the military' hype - they added only six new frigates to the fleet and did very little else. They cancelled purchases of 6 frigates, new tanks, the largest icebreaker in the world, and nuke subs for the navy. To top it off, Mulroney sold off our Chinooks and cut personnel from 80k to 60k. For all the years of $30 billion deficits, I'd say they actually did LESS than even the Trudeau-era Liberals did (Leopard tanks, 6 frigates, 4 destroyers, 138 CF-18s, LAV IIIs, etc) for our military.

And while defence spending hit did a low in the late 90s (the so-called peace dividend every Western nation enjoyed BTW), after 9/11, the Liberals increased it by 50% (from $10b - to $15b) in only a couple years.

However you slice it, with Harper fairly draconian cuts in the past couple budgets (and his failure to use stimulus to build ships we desperately need), I don't think he has any right to claim that he is better than any other politician when it comes to defence spending.

All of them have been pretty crappy since the mid-60s IMHO.

[Gunnair]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Frankly, you have no idea what the Liberals will do. Harper put money into the military when it was both politically expedient domestically and internationally not because he and the CPC have any great love for the CAF. The fact they are cutting money at a point when capital acquisition is badly needed by all services, cutting personnel when personnel are needed, and operating budgets are shrinking is ignored by those wearing the usual Conservatives love the military blinders.

You're right, we don't know how Trudeau will treat the military if he becomes Prime Minister, and I do take issue with the CPC cutting the military's budget when there are still many issues with the Canadian forces that haven't been resolved, but past history of Liberal leadership in Canada in relation to the Canadian military leaves a lot to be desired, even if the Conservative leadership should be doing better as well

Such as? Frankly, the biggest post war ship building program was under the Liberals even if Diefenbaker was in power for a few years during the middle of it.

Even Pearson/Trudeau authorized the Tribals. Chretian had the KINGSTONS and the VICTORIA Class.

Only the PCs can claim the CPFs really as their contribution.

As far as the RCN goes, the old myth of Liberal neglect falls flat on its partisan face.

[Freakinoldguy]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Under whose watch was it, that the families of serving members had to use food banks?

It was the Liberals but they did fix It.... eventually after they were embarrassed enough to but, remember the root cause was also a relic of the 7 years with no raises. So pointing a finger at either party isn't really true since both are to blame. Another thing about the need for food banks is the Gov't policy of allowing married and aging recruits because of the Charter.

We started seeing 40 year old recruits with 5 kids enlisting which is bullshit. They couldn't support their family on the money they got paid as a recruit so it became a big fekin scandal, which would never have occurred if the spineless gov'ts both liberal and conservative had excluded the military from the Charter and left us the fuck alone like they should have.

[commanderkai]

bootlegga bootlegga:

That all depends on how far back you look - the pre-Trudeau Liberals (40s, 50s and 60s) spent pretty heavily on defence and we maintained the largest peacetime military we've ever had under those governments. They funded made in Canada fighter planes (some indigenously and some under license - CF-100, CF-105 CF-86, CF-5), they built the biggest peacetime navy (close to 60 ships IIRC) and army we've ever had. They also had an air wing and a small division based in Europe (a large brigade by our own standards) and even armed our troops with nuclear weapons!

Admittedly that was largely because they had just fought WW2 and the Cold War was ramping up, but the fact remains they did spend very heavily on defence.

Agreed, completely. However, I do think Prime Minister Trudeau forever changed how the Liberal Party dealt with the military, for the worse. I do hold HUGE criticism for how Diefenbaker reacted to the Cuban Missile Crisis, but I think Trudeau's actions were extremely brutal during his leadership of Canada.

Trust me, sometimes I wish we could resurrect some of our late Prime Ministers so they could whack our current leadership with some sense in how to deal with the military.

$1:

Conversely, the Conservatives under Clark and Mulroney never lived up to the 'Conservtives lover the military' hype - they added only six new frigates to the fleet and did very little else. They cancelled purchases of 6 frigates, new tanks, the largest icebreaker in the world, and nuke subs for the navy. To top it off, Mulroney sold off our Chinooks and cut personnel from 80k to 60k. For all the years of $30 billion deficits, I'd say they actually did LESS than even the Trudeau-era Liberals did (Leopard tanks, 6 frigates, 4 destroyers, 138 CF-18s, LAV IIIs, etc) for our military.

I wholly agree, again. Don't get me wrong. For whatever you might say about the Republicans, at least they're very committed to America's military strength, and I wish the Conservative Party had some of that backbone. Sadly, they lack it.

Of course, we'll disagree that Mulroney is worse than Trudeau, considering at least, in my view, Mulroney did something, however pitiful, to reequip the Canadian forces, while in my view, Trudeau's cuts during the middle of the Cold War, including removing our stationed forces from Europe showed a lack of commitment to NATO, (of course, Diefenbaker also showed a lack of commitment to NATO with his actions during the Cuban Missile Crisis, so we can spend plenty of time arguing who is worse )

Knowing you, I'm sure you've read J. L. Granatstein's Who Killed the Canadian Military? and I think his chapter on Mulroney titled "The False Dawn of Hope" is incredibly fitting.

$1:

And while defence spending hit did a low in the late 90s (the so-called peace dividend every Western nation enjoyed BTW), after 9/11, the Liberals increased it by 50% (from $10b - to $15b) in only a couple years.

However you slice it, with Harper fairly draconian cuts in the past couple budgets (and his failure to use stimulus to build ships we desperately need), I don't think he has any right to claim that he is better than any other politician when it comes to defence spending.

All of them have been pretty crappy since the mid-60s IMHO.

Again, I wholly agree. I don't give Chretien all that much credit considering how underfunded the Forces were during a majority of his leadership, and that increasing spending after the 9-11 attacks were critical for the Canadian Forces.

I'll repeat the notion that I am biased that I give Harper some credit for what little he has done, even though it's nowhere near enough, and I really would wish he would do more. I was extremely disappointed in him. However, in my personal view, I don't see the Liberals under Justin Trudeau being better advocates for the Canadian Forces.

And yes, I agree, they all have sucked, one way or another, since Diefenbaker, in my opinion.

[Canadian_Mind]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Such as? Frankly, the biggest post war ship building program was under the Liberals even if Diefenbaker was in power for a few years during the middle of it.

Even Pearson/Trudeau authorized the Tribals. Chretian had the KINGSTONS and the VICTORIA Class.

Only the PCs can claim the CPFs really as their contribution.

As far as the RCN goes, the old myth of Liberal neglect falls flat on its partisan face.

I tried to +5 you, but it didn't work. I pretty much see this as the sum up of my opinions on the issue.

As for my earlier post, learn to take a joke old man, it don't hurt.

Commanderkai - I'm begining to think our older generations grew up knowing what the consequences of their decisions will be. They lived through the Great Depression, WWII, Korea, the early days of the Cold War, and some of them even WWI. With that experience, they could make the pragmatic decisions they made. Today's politicians have only ever lived to see economic crisis, so that is all they care about.

[Thanos]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Be careful now, criticism of our Dear Leader automatically means you are nothing less than a filthy socialist liberal!

Please don't talk like that. One Curtman per discussion board is more than enough.

[Freakinoldguy]

Anybody old enough to remember Trudeau's visit to the Restigouche in the mid 70's? When questioned by a young sailor about when the Canadian Navy would be going to Australia again, Trudeau responded with the line that the only way a Canadian Sailor would get to Australia would be to buy a plane ticket.

Everybody thought he was joking but unfortunately he wasn't. Except for Training Squadron most of the other squadrons did sweet fuck all for the next decade. Maybe they'd get a RIMPAC or NATO deployment every now and then but that was about the extent of their sea time because it must have cost to much to unweld them from the jetties.

So maybe the myth that the Liberals liked the Navy started back then, because they gave 3/4 of them a shore posting with sea pay.

But. I don't blame Trudeau for the fact that only one squadron and the NATO ships ran continually. He just cut the budget, he didn't make the decsions to basically turn the Navy into buildings with hull numbers. For that we can thank NDHQ and the bean counters because they didn't adapt to the changing financial picture and rather than rotate people and ships through the training system they took the easy way out and just tied most of them up.

So in essence we were training hundreds of Officers for ships that didn't sail. Makes alot of sense when you think about it.

[Jonny_C]

commanderkai commanderkai:

You're right, we don't know how Trudeau will treat the military if he becomes Prime Minister, and I do take issue with the CPC cutting the military's budget when there are still many issues with the Canadian forces that haven't been resolved, but past history of Liberal leadership in Canada in relation to the Canadian military leaves a lot to be desired, even if the Conservative leadership should be doing better as well

I think the Conservative focus has become balancing the books, by whatever means, before the next election call. So even if they want to do better by our armed forces, they may allow the pressure of the bottom line to take precedence.

Political expediency over need. It's easier to cut military procurement (less backlash) than a lot of other programs, seems to me.

[ShepherdsDog]

I loved Training Squadron and having an Officer Cadetiot of my own. We always had a shit load of MARS bars too, and during my OSUT we were quartered in the same mess.

[Gunnair]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

I loved Training Squadron and having an Officer Cadetiot of my own. We always had a shit load of MARS bars too, and during my OSUT we were quartered in the same mess.

Never did training squadron. Spent my time in 2 squadron. Mind, the KINGSTONS made up for that.

[ShepherdsDog]

Ahhhhh....2 Sqdn Harbour Patrol