[Sunnyways]

I can’t remember a time in my life when it was considered appropriate for middle aged professional men to have romantic relationships with young teenagers. Maybe Alabama was different but I doubt it. Seems like these days, the Right consider winning an election as approval for everything a guy has done and better than a not guilty verdict. Even in Alabama, Moore couldn’t get that.

[N_Fiddledog]

Sunnyways Sunnyways:

This is not nit-picking. It your right to travel was restricted by a foreign country, you would notice it, I think.

If you restrict the travel of students trying to leave where they live to go to a third country, you are exerting control over them and their homeland.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68191.html

http://gisha.org/updates/8107

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. Like the boycott this punishes people indiscriminately.

Speaking of ridiculous.

You're using this to attach rationale to the idea Gaza is under Israeli control.

That chain of inane paralogic (my word TM ) appears to go something like this:

Restrictions are control>Trump places restrictions on Iranians coming to America>America controls the Ayatolahs of Iran.

I use travel restrictions because you did. Feel free to replace it with sanctions if you like. It's still nuts.

[Sunnyways]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Speaking of ridiculous.

You're using this to attach rationale to the idea Gaza is under Israeli control.

That chain of inane paralogic (my word TM ) appears to go something like this:

Restrictions are control>Trump places restrictions on Iranians coming to America>America controls the Ayatolahs of Iran.

I use travel restrictions because you did. Feel free to replace it with sanctions if you like. It's still nuts.

Did you read what I included? This person is trying to travel to the UK for a scholarship. He has to traverse Israel to do so. He is not trying to immigrate to Israel. Your comparison is not an accurate one. It would be accurate if the US restricted the rights of Iranians to travel to India or Pakistan.

[Thanos]

When the Palestinians can't even stack two bricks together to rebuild a house without Israeli permission or risk having it bombed again then Israel is obviously in de facto control of Gaza, no matter the wordy gymnastics some are engaging in to make it seem otherwise. That's no me feeling sorry for the Arabs, that's basic reality in an ongoing situation that's essentially the living definition of gunboat "diplomacy".

[N_Fiddledog]

Thanos Thanos:

When the Palestinians can't even stack two bricks together to rebuild a house without Israeli permission or risk having it bombed again then Israel is obviously in de facto control of Gaza

Except that's not true either. Try again.

They build tunnels to attack Israel through easy enough.

[N_Fiddledog]

Sunnyways Sunnyways:

Did you read what I included? This person is trying to travel to the UK for a scholarship. He has to traverse Israel to do so. He is not trying to immigrate to Israel. Your comparison is not an accurate one. It would be accurate if the US restricted the rights of Iranians to travel to India or Pakistan.

Not that it matters, because as I said any kind of restrictions or sanctions can be used to make my point, but even if you want to stay with that specific case you're still wrong.

Your guy, who you're suddenly attaching so much importance to, even though his case has nothing to do with the original point that stated Israel doesn't have any kind of exclusive authority over Gaza, did want to enter Israel. The permission was delayed.

From your link:

$1:

Mr Awad applied for a visa to exit Gaza through the Erez crossing in order to travel overland to Amman, where he would fly to London.

His UK student visa gives him a window of time in which to enter the country, which expires on 13 October. At this point it seems unlikely he will be allowed to leave before 24 October at the earliest.

The Erez crossing goes from Gaza into Israel.

BTW, if Israel wouldn't let him in as quickly as he would have liked why didn't he go through Egypt?

Oh wait...that's right:

$1:

There are three checkpoints out: two into Israel, and one at Rafah, the crossing with Egypt, which has largely been closed since Hamas, the militant organization which rules Gaza, seized control of the Strip in 2007.

And I remind you the quote above is from the source you offered.

[herbie]

So does any of the last 2 pages of deflection regarding goddam Christians how many are what religion and who runs Gaza and if they're "nice" or not have any relevance to Trump's stupid decision to destabilize everything?

[N_Fiddledog]

Oh you'd like us to bring this tugboat to shore for you, would you?

Very well, but first here's why it was important to kill the BS (B as in Beave ) tale in its crib of all these imagined anti-Zionist Christians.

What's called the "Palestinian" conflict is Jews versus Muslim Arabs. Palestinian is just a recent redefined word to describe Muslim Arab of the region. There's a small and steadily shrinking demographic of Christian Arabs, but they're only added to the definition when convenient.

This conflict is religious.

One of the central rationales between the Muslims' claim to Jerusalem evolves out of a Quranic and Hadith-driven fairy-tale of Mohammed's "Night Journey." Supposedly some Angel came to Mohammed one night and plopped him down onto this donkey sort of thing whereupon they flew to what was supposed to be the farthest mosque at the far side of the world; or something.

This was before the Muslims invaded and finally conquered the Holy land/Judaea/Palestine, whatever you want to call it.

One of the Caliphs built a small prayer shack on what the Jews called the temple mount some time after Mohammed's death. The structure was added to over the centuries and eventually became the Al Aqsa mosque. Sometime during that period, the Muslims decided Al Aqsa was the place Mohammed flew his flying ass, Buraq, to. (Buraq - sounds a bit like Barrack, doesn't it? )

Anyway, there have been Alahu Akbar, blood riddled turf tantrums since the Jews returned from the diaspora and thought they might like to worship at what originally was their most holy Mount.

So fast forward through the latter part of the 20th century and America was still more or less bound to its Judaeo Christian roots for standards and core values. Islamic mumbo jumbo didn't impress them. The American leadership reflected that attitude and Jerusalem was always planned to be the place where the American embassy would go. Clinton or Bush - didn't matter.

Lately, though the cultural Marxists of the regressive left have managed to convince us of what Orwell's Animal Farm introduces as the "2 legs bad, 4 legs better" technique of rethink. Now it's Jews/Christians bad. Muslims better. Alahu Akbar.

Muslims became the indigenous people of the region in the minds the growing herd of American sheep herded by the new Progressive 'reform' culture even though all history and common sense would show indigeneity to the region to be more exclusive to the Jews. Palestine became redefined to mean Muslim Arabs of the region (a few token Arab Christians could be added when convenient). Territory in dispute became occupied territory. Instigators of terror were rewritten as victims.

We didn't used to believe any of that crap now we're expected to.

So at one time, not too long ago, Jerusalem as the capital of Israel was just common sense to the average American. Today we're told to believe this is outrageous. It's not.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I’m confused...exactly what argument of mine do you think you’re rebutting?

Wasn't that clear on page 9 when I told you:

$1:

But I'm not sure what your point is. You seem to be thinking Arab Christians are necessarily pro-Muslim or something. If that were true then why are so many leaving lately while the Muslim population is growing in the area they're leaving?

And they are leaving Beave. Your Wikipedia post tells us almost 11% of the Arab population was Christian in 1922. BBC directs us to data saying the West Bank and Gaza was under 2% Christian in 2016. In fact, here's something you neglected to show us, but even your Wikipedia link says, "As of 2015, Palestinian Christians comprise approximately 1–2.5% of the population of the West Bank, and less than 1% in the Gaza Strip.[4][5]."

And here's another thing, this isn't the first time you've tried to present the idea of this substantial anti-Israel lobby of Christian (what you call Palestinians and I would call arabs.)

2% percent, Beave and BBC was talking about the whole region. Just 2%. I don't know what percentage of those are anti-Israel and neither do you, but do you remember the one when you were trying to tell us about all the anti-Israel revolutionaries on the side of the MIDOT (Muslims in Dispute of Territory) jihad? Do you remember how the 2 of us together could only find 2 possible examples and they were wienies?

So no there is not some kind of significant anti-Israel push from what you're calling "Palestinian" Christians. Not even the demographic is significant and it's shrinking annually.

Also, as Shep explained on the previous page this idea of Palestine being non-Jewish (read Arab) is relatively recent. Palestinian as you and yours use it now is pretty much a new term, so what it describes is also new. Hell, in his authorized biography Yasser Arafat says he created the Palestinians. And that may be true.

I can’t make much sense of your ramblings. But to reiterate/

1) Palestinian Christians are Arabs and they are mostly on the side of the Palestinians, not Israelis

2) They mostly live in the Occupied Territorries and are not citizens of Israel.

3) They mostly do not support the ongoing occupation of West Bank in particular or any other territory not part of the original pre-1967 borders generally.

4) Their opinions have nothing to do with Islam or their opinions of Muslims but they are both under Israeli occupation.

FULL STOP.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Sunnyways Sunnyways:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

And no offense Beave, but claiming Gaza is under Israeli control is ridiculous.

It is under partial Israeli control. Try being a fisherman there and you'll find that out pronto. It differs from the future West Bank Bantustans Naftali Bennett would like to see in that does have a border with another country and so is not completely sealed off at the moment.

What? You mean the blockade? That's enforced by Israel and Egypt.

I think that group of nations they call the "Quartet on the Middle East" has something to do with it too.

But you know that business of firing rockets into Israel or digging tunnels to hopefully one day send soldiers through to attack Israel, or hiding armaments in schools or setting up war rooms in hospitals, or dragging bodies through the streets behind motorcycles on the suspicion the dragees might have been Israeli agents? Believe it or not Israel had nothing to do with any of that and some might say if they did in truth have some sort of control over Gaza they wouldn't allow such things.

You obviously don’t know anything. Israel controls all utilities and ports of entry into Gaza. It has authority over all Gaza airspace and coastline and is still holds the official designation of Occupying Power ocer Gaza. Israel routinely blocks shipments of food, goods and medicine into Gaza as punishment for some incident or to gain some political leverage

As one Palestinian official said: ” The Israeli restrictions, Hamas rockets and all other aspects of the conflict all take place within the framework of an illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories. We have resistance and rockets; sometimes it's legitimate and sometimes it's an illegitimate means of resistance, but it's all because of the occupation. Evacuating part of Palestinian territory, changing the form of control from inside to outside, does not mean the Palestinians should give up on their efforts to get complete freedom.”

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You obviously don’t know anything.

Oh please, great mavin of all knowledge, educate me.

$1:

Israel controls all utilities and ports of entry into Gaza. It has authority over all Gaza airspace and coastline and is still holds the official designation of Occupying Power ocer Gaza. Israel routinely blocks shipments of food, goods and medicine into Gaza as punishment for some incident or to gain some political leverage

Wait a minute...

I thought you just told me you were smart.

Why are you talking like such an idiot?

Everything you just described is external to Gaza. It's nice of Israel to share their wealth of utilities with Gaza, but they don't owe them anything.

Now as to the rest...

$1:

Following the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza in 2005, the terrorist organization Hamas emerged as the victor in the 2006 Palestinian elections. Since the establishment of Hamas in the early 1990's, they have been known to Israel as violent antisemitic terrorists and have been classified by 7 countries as a terrorist organization. After Hamas won the election Israel and "The Quartet on the Middle East" (US, Russia, UN, EU) imposed economic sanctions on Gaza, including the cessation of foreign aid to the Palestinian government, and restrictions on movement, imposed by Israel. In order to lift these economic sanctions and movement restrictions, Hamas must: renounce violence against Israel, recognize Israel, and honor all previous agreeemnts between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007 in which Hamas militarilly defeated Fatah, both Israel and Egypt heavily tightened their respective border crossings, creating a "blockade". This blockade includes a naval blockade. So far Hamas has not conceeded to these stipulations, and the blockade is still in place.

It's not Israel.

It's Israel, Egypt, US, Russia, the UN AND the EU. If Hamas wants more freedom it needs to behave itself. So says the world.

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

1) Palestinian Christians are Arabs and they are mostly on the side of the Palestinians, not Israelis

About 80% of Palestinian Christians are Arabs. They are mostly on the side of anybody who can get them the Hell out of Palestine.

$1:

2) They mostly live in the Occupied Territories and are not citizens of Israel.

Do you ever read your own links?

This is from the Wikipedia link you offered up earlier:

$1:

In 2009, there were an estimated 50,000 Christians in the Palestinian territories, mostly in the West Bank, with about 3,000 in the Gaza Strip.[11] Of the total Christian population of 154,000 in Israel, about 80% are designated as Arabs, many of whom self-identify as Palestinian.

$1:

3) They mostly do not support the ongoing occupation of West Bank in particular or any other territory not part of the original pre-1967 borders generally.

Says who?

The Christian Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza is shrinking. The Muslim population of the region is growing.

I think we already covered that.

The Christian Arab population of Israel is growing.

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/CBS- ... el-growing

So the Christians with the Jews are thriving. The Christians with the Muslims are trying to get the Hell out of there.

I know. Blame the Jews.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You obviously don’t know anything.

Oh please, great mavin of all knowledge, educate me.

$1:

Israel controls all utilities and ports of entry into Gaza. It has authority over all Gaza airspace and coastline and is still holds the official designation of Occupying Power ocer Gaza. Israel routinely blocks shipments of food, goods and medicine into Gaza as punishment for some incident or to gain some political leverage

Wait a minute...

I thought you just told me you were smart.

Why are you talking like such an idiot?

Everything you just described is external to Gaza. It's nice of Israel to share their wealth of utilities with Gaza, but they don't owe them anything.

Now as to the rest...

$1:

Following the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza in 2005, the terrorist organization Hamas emerged as the victor in the 2006 Palestinian elections. Since the establishment of Hamas in the early 1990's, they have been known to Israel as violent antisemitic terrorists and have been classified by 7 countries as a terrorist organization. After Hamas won the election Israel and "The Quartet on the Middle East" (US, Russia, UN, EU) imposed economic sanctions on Gaza, including the cessation of foreign aid to the Palestinian government, and restrictions on movement, imposed by Israel. In order to lift these economic sanctions and movement restrictions, Hamas must: renounce violence against Israel, recognize Israel, and honor all previous agreeemnts between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007 in which Hamas militarilly defeated Fatah, both Israel and Egypt heavily tightened their respective border crossings, creating a "blockade". This blockade includes a naval blockade. So far Hamas has not conceeded to these stipulations, and the blockade is still in place.

It's not Israel.

It's Israel, Egypt, US, Russia, the UN AND the EU. If Hamas wants more freedom it needs to behave itself. So says the world.

The US doesn’t even recognize Gaza as an independent country. Thy have a sel- governing agreement with Israel, that’s not the same as independence.

[N_Fiddledog]

Does anybody recognize Gaza as an independent country? The UN, EU, Russia and America have all imposed sanctions and appear to endorse the blockade imposed by Israel and Egypt.

I don't know what this independence is you think they should have. Why would it be up to Israel alone to give it to them? The blockade is international. Egypt restricts passage at its border with Gaza.

What could Israel give them? Free water and electricity? Open access into Israel?

How is that Gazan independence?

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

About 80% of Palestinian Christians are Arabs. They are mostly on the side of anybody who can get them the Hell out of Palestine.

You should let the mayor of Bethlehem know that. She’s an ELECTED UNMARRIED CHRISTIAN FEMALE. Her political party has Muslims and Christians in it. apparently she doesn’t know how bad she has it. And do you think Israel hasn’t “gotten them the hell out of there “. Or enfranchised thrm?

$1:

Do you ever read your own links?

This is from the Wikipedia link you offered up earlier:

$1:

In 2009, there were an estimated 50,000 Christians in the Palestinian territories, mostly in the West Bank, with about 3,000 in the Gaza Strip.[11] Of the total Christian population of 154,000 in Israel, about 80% are designated as Arabs, many of whom self-identify as Palestinian.

Do you read anything? Seems to be exactly what I said I don’t see any discrepancy

$1:

$1:

3) They mostly do not support the ongoing occupation of West Bank in particular or any other territory not part of the original pre-1967 borders generally.

Says who?

Here are some recent headlines, some from your favourite right wing birdcage liners:

$1:

Donald Trump’s Jerusalem decision sees Palestinian Christians and Muslims united in outrage

Wednesday 13 December 2017

Move contrasts calls for uprisings and third intifada, as religious sects opt for peaceful protests

Maayan Lubell
Wednesday 13 December 2017

Less than an hour after US President Donald Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, Palestinians protested by turning off the lights on the Christmas tree outside Bethlehem’s Church of the Nativity, the traditional birthplace of Jesus.

It was a timely reminder that while headlines focused on Islamist calls for uprisings and Trump’s references to Jewish historical ties, the president’s words also stirred deep feelings among the Palestinians’ small Christian community.

Coming out of the Sunday service in his Assyrian Catholic church in Jerusalem, Fredrick Hazo accused Trump of “dragging all the world into trouble”, and called on the US leader to reverse his decision.

“We are united - Christians, Muslims, we are one,” said the 59-year-old Palestinian musician, standing in an alley in the heart of the Old City, surrounded by shops selling religious trinkets.

He was frustrated by the politics, but confident the delicate balance the three faiths kept in the holy city would prevail. “In this sacred place, God is protecting us all. We are guarded by his angels in Jerusalem,” Hazo added.

Christians make up around just one per cent of the Palestinian population in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem - though they punch above their weight in local and national politics.

Back in July, Hazo protested alongside Muslims against Israel’s installation of security scanners at the nearby al-Aqsa mosque - Islam’s third holiest site - after two Arab-Israeli gunmen shot dead two Israeli police officers at the site....

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.independe ... html%3famp

$1:

Palestinian protesters burn images of Trump and the U.S. flag ahead of his controversial promise to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel

By Associated Press and Ariel Zilber For Dailymail.com
08:41 05 Dec 2017, updated 23:39 06 Dec 2017

Last night, Palestinian Christians gathered in Bethlehem and burned placards featuring Trump's likeness and 'Jerusalem, Palestine's heart, is not up to negotiations,' written on them.

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.dailymail ... deast.html

$1:

Analysis Arab Citizens Want to Integrate Into Israel but Refuse to Be a Trampled Minority

Jack Khoury11.12.2017 | 06:09


People on the right must understand that the country's Arabs are comfortable with their Israeli citizenship but still cherish their national connection to the Palestinians

....
First, Israeli Jews must realize that most Arabs in Israel see themselves as an integral part of the Palestinian people. They view the term “Israeli Arab” as an Israeli invention aimed at concealing any national and historical connection to the Palestinian people.

In Israel the Arab community is also divided into subgroups – Muslims, Christians and Druze. The Christians are further divided into subgroups, and among the Muslims there are the Bedouin. So to a typical Israeli, the Arabs are merely a collection of non-Jewish religious and ethnic communities; the concept of a Palestinian national minority is repressed and hidden.

....Whether Israelis like it or not, most Arabs in Israel don’t deny their national identity, but also most don’t deny their Israeli citizenship. All quality opinion polls in recent years have shown that Arab citizens of Israel seek to further integrate into Israeli society and its institutions but aren’t willing to forever be a minority that’s discriminated against.

The strong desire to integrate and develop is also consistent with the desire to achieve a diplomatic agreement that will assure the Palestinians self-determination and an end to the occupation. The expectation that Arab citizens of Israel will be completely indifferent to the suffering of their Palestinian brethren in Gaza or the West Bank is inhumane; no one would think to demand that Israeli Jews or the government not identify with the Jewish victims of anti-Semitism anywhere around the world....

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... 7DF2D95A5C

$1:

Christian Arabs protest Greek patriarch on Israel land deals | Fox News

LOD, Israel –
Dozens of Christian Arabs have protested against the Greek Orthodox patriarch of the Holy Land, demanding the resignation of Theophilos III for allegedly selling church land to Israelis.

Continue Reading Below

Some 50 demonstrators rallied Thursday outside St. George Church in central Israel where Theophilos had arrived to pray. Some waved banners calling him "not trustworthy." Others scuffled with Theophilos' supporters.

The church is one of the largest real estate owners in the Holy Land. It is dominated by Greek clergy while the flock is overwhelmingly Palestinian....

And on and on it goes

$1:

The Christian Arab population of the West Bank and Gaza is shrinking. The Muslim population of the region is growing.

I think we already covered that.

The Christian Arab population of Israel is growing.

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/CBS- ... el-growing

So the Christians with the Jews are thriving. The Christians with the Muslims are trying to get the Hell out of there.

Because of economic opportunity and the fact that the OT are are under heavy security and subject to all kinds of border and utility shutdowns, economic embargos, air strikes, security actions etc. It doesn’t mean that they support the occupation.

$1:

I know. Blame the Jews.

You know for a bunch people who complain about “playing the race card “ whenever it comes to Blacks or Mexicans or whomever, you can’t seem to get through a single page of this thread without claiming anyone who criticizes Israels policies is anti-semitic. Not to mention the fact that you’re recently in the position of defending and apologizing for neo-Nazis is Charlottesville. I’ve probably had more jewish friends, classmates and colleagues than you’ve ever even met, you loser.