[BeaverFever]

BRAH BRAH:

We have lost the equivalent of over 9 Oshawa GM plants in just construction jobs on 4 pipelines - 2 cancelled, 2 stalled.

Small town AB understands what Oshawa is going to go through next.

In the meantime, Trudeau's off to the G20 to talk about gender

https://twitter.com/SheilaGunnReid/status/1067200024537223172
______________________

The Trudeau Derangement Syndrome is strong with this one!

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Tricks Tricks:

Tesla needs to tighten up their logistics. They have a problem with repairs that really needs solving before it's going to be a viable alternative to most people.

Tesla is a car company created in the last decade out of thin air. I expect there to be problems. But they get worked out. GM is more than 100 years old. Their problem is they haven't been very agile. That's why Tesla is taking their market away.

Not to mention at the same time, the guy created a Space launch company and a rapid transit company also out of thin air. No wonder he acts like an ass, the guy probably doesn't sleep.

No doubt, I think Tesla has a lot of potential. And it's obviously going to have growing pains, but I don't see it being as widespread as a major company like toyota or ford until they tighten up their operation by a significant amount.

I agree, but they also face a lot of disadvantages. There are many states that won't allow them to be sold in that state, in order to protect the 'big 3' companies. Makes it tough to service the cars if you can't set up operations in the state.

[llama66]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I agree, but they also face a lot of disadvantages. There are many states that won't allow them to be sold in that state, in order to protect the 'big 3' companies. Makes it tough to service the cars if you can't set up operations in the state.

Not very capitalist.

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I agree, but they also face a lot of disadvantages. There are many states that won't allow them to be sold in that state, in order to protect the 'big 3' companies. Makes it tough to service the cars if you can't set up operations in the state.

I'm surprised that's legal.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I agree, but they also face a lot of disadvantages. There are many states that won't allow them to be sold in that state, in order to protect the 'big 3' companies. Makes it tough to service the cars if you can't set up operations in the state.

Not very capitalist.

Who said the US was about the free market? It's about which politicians you can buy.

Tricks Tricks:

I'm surprised that's legal.

They made it legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_ ... p_disputes

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pu ... ly-states/

https://reason.com/reasontv/2017/07/19/ ... s-in-texas

[DrCaleb]

$1:

If Ford's decision earlier this year wasn't proof, then GM's announcement this week should remove all doubt: Americans are done with the sedan. Like it or not, the trucks and SUVs have won. Which bodes well for one of the newest entrant into the market, a startup called Rivian. This week, it finally revealed its first two products, the R1T, an all-electric pickup truck starting at $61,500, and the R1S, a seven-seater electric SUV that starts at $65,000.

Both are ground-up designs, sharing a skateboard platform (common to most battery electric vehicles, with the battery pack living between the axles and underneath the passenger compartment). Rivian will offer three different sizes of battery in both vehicles; at launch you can pick either 180kWh (and 400 miles/640km of range) or 135kWh (310 miles/500km) packs, with a third configuration of 105kWh (240 miles/390km) coming six months after production starts in 2020. The batteries are capable of recharging at up to 160kW on a DC fast charger, and are also equipped with an 11kW onboard charger.

Rivian debuts new US-made electric truck and SUV with 400-mile range

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

llama66 llama66:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

I agree, but they also face a lot of disadvantages. There are many states that won't allow them to be sold in that state, in order to protect the 'big 3' companies. Makes it tough to service the cars if you can't set up operations in the state.

Not very capitalist.

Who said the US was about the free market? It's about which politicians you can buy.

Tricks Tricks:

I'm surprised that's legal.

They made it legal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_ ... p_disputes

https://electrek.co/2018/02/14/tesla-pu ... ly-states/

https://reason.com/reasontv/2017/07/19/ ... s-in-texas

"Freedom"

[llama66]

Freedom isn't free

[BeaverFever]

Thanos Thanos:

BRAH BRAH:

We have lost the equivalent of over 9 Oshawa GM plants in just construction jobs on 4 pipelines - 2 cancelled, 2 stalled.

Small town AB understands what Oshawa is going to go through next.

In the meantime, Trudeau's off to the G20 to talk about gender

https://twitter.com/SheilaGunnReid/status/1067200024537223172
______________________

Must be, say, a purely Canadian quirk to run a country this way. Sigh.

You mean right wing Trudeau Derangement Syndrome?

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Based on Tesla's checkered history with the Model 3 and the EV semi, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Tesla pick-up.

The Model 3 is the #6 best selling car in California.

It is NOW, but Tesla had a helluva time getting the production line up and running to the point where they could realistically fill their orders.

People started plunking down deposits in early 2016, and it took until July of this year to finally hit their production goal of 5,000 cars per month (that was supposed to happen in 2017). Those delays caused lots of people to demand their deposits back.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Tesla Semi secures another order for electric trucks ahead of launch (Nov 18, 2018)

Grocery Giant Plans to Buy 10 Tesla Electric Tractors (Nov 26, 2018)

Tesla Pickup Truck: Elon Musk hints at accelerated plan for electric pickup (Nov 19, 2018)

I'd say where GM is waning, Tesla is waxing.

I agree that Tesla seems like it's finally on track and is definitely growing into a major automaker, and will likely supplant one (or more) of the Big 3 in the next decade.

However, my point was that going from a prototype EV to a full production model takes a lot of time, even for Tesla. It is compounded when the EV version costs 20-40% more than a similar ICE version does, especially with the US government phasing out EV subsidies.

And yes, Tesla is taking orders for EV semis and so on, but I have a feeling that it's going to take longer than Musk expects, just like the Model 3 did. Superstore for example, ordered 25 Tesla semis, while Wal-Mart ordered 15, all of which is great, but it's a drop in the bucket so to speak (each company has hundreds of vehicles to replace).

[N_Fiddledog]

Interesting POV from the Red Star.

Trump fights while Trudeau and Ford roll over on GM plant closure

$1:

General Motors’ decision to close its Oshawa plant is treated by the federal and Ontario governments as irreversible — as the inevitable result of global market forces. It is neither.

Rather it is a self-serving decision made by a multinational adept in navigating the areas where politics and economics intersect. In making it, GM has taken advantage of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s fascination with high technology and Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s laissez-faire approach to industrial policy.

True, there is an important economic element behind the automaker’s plan to close eight plants worldwide. Consumers no longer buy many of the cars GM makes, including the Chevrolet Impala sedan manufactured in Oshawa.

Nor are they buying the hybrid Chevy Volt, once touted by GM as the car of the future. The Detroit plant that makes the Volt is one of the eight due to be shuttered.

Rather, consumers are buying gas-guzzling SUVs and pickup trucks — including the Silverado and Sierra models assembled in Oshawa.

They are doing so in part because oil prices are low. But they are also expressing a stubborn preference for big vehicles, no matter how politically incorrect.

So when GM says it wants to focus on developing electric and self-driving autos, it isn’t being entirely straightforward.

What the company really wants to do is shift production from vehicles that people don’t buy — including electric hybrids like the Volt — to those they do buy, such as pickup trucks.

GM would be pleased if, along the way, its engineers happened to develop a revolutionary electric car. But until that day arrives, it will concentrate on the more mundane task of making as much money as possible.

In a nutshell, this is the economics behind GM’s Monday announcement that it will close four plants in the U.S. and three overseas as well as Oshawa.

The politics of the decision has to do with where GM will manufacture those models it still plans to produce.

Its preference is to assemble them in low-wage countries like Mexico. But like all car companies it is willing to be enticed by government subsidies and is susceptible to pressure from government threats.

In strict efficiency terms, it would make sense for GM to shift the production of profitable models to its Oshawa plant. Oshawa’s flexible assembly line can handle both cars and trucks. Oshawa already performs the final assembly stage of two profitable pickup models. GM itself says the Oshawa workforce is one of the most productive in its stable.

But in the real world of politics, GM knows it wouldn’t get away with keeping a Canadian plant open when it was shutting down four U.S. operations. Donald Trump wouldn’t let it happen.

Indeed, the U.S. president has already signalled that he expects GM to backtrack on at least one plant closure in Ohio. If the company can’t make money selling the compact cars manufactured there now, he warned Monday, then “They’d better put something else in.”

What can Trump do? He’s already shown he can use tariffs with devastating effect. I’m sure he’d think of some way to punish GM if it didn’t comply.

But the importance of the Trump threat is that he’s not taken in by arguments of economic inevitability. He knows that when it comes to the auto industry, nothing is written in stone.

By contrast, Canada’s federal and Ontario governments have convinced themselves that nothing can be done. The Trudeau Liberals are so focused on high-tech jobs of the future that they too often — as in this case — forget the needs of the present.

Trudeau, who has spent some time cultivating GM head Mary Barra, appears to have accepted her claim that the Oshawa decision is irreversible.

Ford, for different reasons, has taken the same tack. He blames the planned federal carbon tax in part for GM’s decision, yet insists that nothing can be done to change it.

Both Canadian leaders fail to see what Trump instinctively understands: This is the auto industry we’re talking about; nothing is immutable.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-co ... osure.html

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

It is NOW, but Tesla had a helluva time getting the production line up and running to the point where they could realistically fill their orders.

People started plunking down deposits in early 2016, and it took until July of this year to finally hit their production goal of 5,000 cars per month (that was supposed to happen in 2017). Those delays caused lots of people to demand their deposits back.

I quite agree. I wanted a Model 3 as my next car, but they weren't (and aren't) delivering the cheaper model which was in my price range. Perhaps my next car will be a Tesla.

bootlegga bootlegga:

I agree that Tesla seems like it's finally on track and is definitely growing into a major automaker, and will likely supplant one (or more) of the Big 3 in the next decade.

However, my point was that going from a prototype EV to a full production model takes a lot of time, even for Tesla. It is compounded when the EV version costs 20-40% more than a similar ICE version does, especially with the US government phasing out EV subsidies.

And yes, Tesla is taking orders for EV semis and so on, but I have a feeling that it's going to take longer than Musk expects, just like the Model 3 did. Superstore for example, ordered 25 Tesla semis, while Wal-Mart ordered 15, all of which is great, but it's a drop in the bucket so to speak (each company has hundreds of vehicles to replace).

Yes, all true. But the big automakers have had 100+ years to develop their infrastructure. Tesla had to build a giant factory for it's batteries and roll out charging stations everywhere, while every street corner has a shop that can fix or fuel an internal combustion engine.

Costs will go down, production will go up. Which is the opposite of Ford, GM and Fiat.

I don't think Semis will take all that long. The tech is quite scalable, as a semi or pickup will have a time honoured frame, and just larger batteries and motors than the Roadster. All that changes is the software, and they need somewhere to build them.

[herbie]

$1:

However, my point was that going from a prototype EV to a full production model takes a lot of time, even for Tesla. It is compounded when the EV version costs 20-40% more than a similar ICE version does, especially with the US government phasing out EV subsidies.

Now imagine if you had a headstart like GM did with the EV1 and then you shut it down and did SFA for 25 years.
Elon Musk might be strange, but that's because real old fashioned American inventors have been drowned in a sea of Can't-servatives.
I think Tesla's biggest fail was not taking over a closed plant and hiring the right people to run it, most likely because Elon was afraid of hiring a stereotype corporate drone like the Big 3 were famous for.

[Tricks]

I just priced out a model 3, it's a lot more than I realised. Base model is 60 grand canadian. Long range model AWD model is 70, performance is 85. You can get z06 for 93. A stingray for 65. A fully loaded STI for less than 60. Virtually any infiniti sedan or coupe for the same or less than the base model 3. A shelby 350 mustang at 75. Genesis g80 for 62.

The cars are nice, but you can get flagship level performance cars from any other manufacture without a lot of the issues that go along with them (like several month long repairs for a simple part). Once they get their costs down and fix their part supply chain, they'll be viable, but right now, that's a big ask of most people.

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

I just priced out a model 3, it's a lot more than I realised. Base model is 60 grand canadian. Long range model AWD model is 70, performance is 85.

The base model they were promising was base $30k, AWD and range options would bring it to about $45k CAD.