[Freakinoldguy]

herbie herbie:

Good God, don't let your own obstinance become 100% of your reasoning. Endlessly worrying about who to exclude is why I'm thankful Andrew Sneer wasn't PM when Covid hit. They'd still be making lists of who NOT to send money to and none would've gone out at all.
Those people who can't or won't work already get $800 - $1100 a month through multiple agencies with multiple staffs in 10 different provinces and 3 territories. Plus billions in grants and donations to run non-profit support agencies to fill in gaps.
Far easier to run a federal UBI and claw back through a revised income tax.

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

[PluggyRug]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

herbie herbie:

Good God, don't let your own obstinance become 100% of your reasoning. Endlessly worrying about who to exclude is why I'm thankful Andrew Sneer wasn't PM when Covid hit. They'd still be making lists of who NOT to send money to and none would've gone out at all.
Those people who can't or won't work already get $800 - $1100 a month through multiple agencies with multiple staffs in 10 different provinces and 3 territories. Plus billions in grants and donations to run non-profit support agencies to fill in gaps.
Far easier to run a federal UBI and claw back through a revised income tax.

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

[herbie]

$1:

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

The gov't takes $100 out of your taxes and does whatever the fuck they want to with it, period. It doesn't go to some particular guy, never does, never has, it's not your anymore. Just the usual blabber about "my" tax dollars and the "why should I pay for someone else" bullshit Yanks use all the time to justify their shitty medical system.
Everyone gets $24,000. NOBODY pays taxes on the first $24,000 they earn. Maybe on the first $30,000. Taxes on earnings above that go up, hopefully offset with a GST increase on spending instead of earning like was the original intent of GST.
If your taxes increase $10,000 or even $20,000 after you've been handed $24,000 you're still ahead aren't you? If they tax it ALL away, it didn't cost you a cent. If they tax you even more, then you make a hell of a lot of money and no one has any sympathy.

Remember that the economy is NOT the stock market it's simply put: money moving and when it moves, the gov't gets some too. Not just from income tax. People have more money, they spend more money (some where you work) that makes more revenue for everyone. People without money actually cost us right now.
Less people are needed to distribute the UBI
More people can afford what you sell or make
The same people that piss it away will probably piss it away again. I see $60-$75K millworkers at the welfare office after a two week shutdown. I probably won't see some 20 year old smashing into the car to steal a radio if he's got money to spend.

[bootlegga]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

You ALREADY basically pay for UBI - it's just parcelled out into dozens of programs called something else (GST refunds, EI, OAS, veteran's supports, etc). The only difference is that UBI will replace all of those AND reduce duplication/costs across government.

As a conservative, shouldn't you want to reduce the size of government and its administrative costs?

The only thing you need to worry about tax clawbacks is that those already earning a decent wage will wind up with far less of it than the vulnerable who need it (and already get it in the aformentioned programs).

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

You ALREADY basically pay for UBI - it's just parcelled out into dozens of programs called something else (GST refunds, EI, OAS, veteran's supports, etc). The only difference is that UBI will replace all of those AND reduce duplication/costs across government.

As a conservative, shouldn't you want to reduce the size of government and its administrative costs?

The only thing you need to worry about tax clawbacks is that those already earning a decent wage will wind up with far less of it than the vulnerable who need it (and already get it in the aformentioned programs).

Less waste and redundancy is always better.

I have seen what goes on the the ministry of 'education' and believe me, 80% of it is waste.

[llama66]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

herbie herbie:

Good God, don't let your own obstinance become 100% of your reasoning. Endlessly worrying about who to exclude is why I'm thankful Andrew Sneer wasn't PM when Covid hit. They'd still be making lists of who NOT to send money to and none would've gone out at all.
Those people who can't or won't work already get $800 - $1100 a month through multiple agencies with multiple staffs in 10 different provinces and 3 territories. Plus billions in grants and donations to run non-profit support agencies to fill in gaps.
Far easier to run a federal UBI and claw back through a revised income tax.

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

Categorically wrong. The time when the United States and Canada were at their strongest was when there was a very high tax on the wealthy.

I don't understand why you guys don't understand that the UBI would replace multiple current programs and be taxed, it would help a great many Canadians. I don't understand why you don't get this.

If O'Tool proposed this I'm sure you'd love the idea.

Understand, I'd rather my tax money go to a Canadian who needs a help up than some fucking corporation that wants to line their pockets.

If your not a multi-millionaire CEO of a corporation you should want this too.

Enough with enabling the rich, lets help the less fortunate.

[raydan]

Trickle down obviously doesn't work, let's try trickle up.

[herbie]

It would trickle UP to the same lot anyway, so they needn't bitch so much.

[Tricks]

llama66 llama66:

Enough with enabling the rich, lets help the less fortunate.

They don't want to help the less fortunate. They've made that abundant clear for years.

[BeaverFever]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

herbie herbie:

Good God, don't let your own obstinance become 100% of your reasoning. Endlessly worrying about who to exclude is why I'm thankful Andrew Sneer wasn't PM when Covid hit. They'd still be making lists of who NOT to send money to and none would've gone out at all.
Those people who can't or won't work already get $800 - $1100 a month through multiple agencies with multiple staffs in 10 different provinces and 3 territories. Plus billions in grants and donations to run non-profit support agencies to fill in gaps.
Far easier to run a federal UBI and claw back through a revised income tax.

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

I'm still out the 100 dollars, you're up 80 dollars for doing nothing and the gov't is happy because they just made 20 dollars for like you, doing nothing. Sound about right?

So explain to me again why taxing the UBI will help the taxpayers who have to pay for the UBI in the first place?

UBI means fewer people will drop out of school for a lifetime of shit min wage jobs and morw of those trapped in shitty jobs will go back to school or start businesses These people will go on to better living standards and higher income therefore growing the economy.

UBI means people will have more options to afford childcare or eldercare needs and will work more or go back to school or start a business. While those who are currently unable to properly care for their kids due to work may stop working, giving their kids a better home environment and chance at perhaps changing the course of their lives for the better.

UBI means less poverty which means lesa crime, less incarceration. Funny how conservatives are so obsessed with not spending a dime to help the supposedly “undeserving” members of society but they always have unlimited funds for mass imprisonment.

[CDN_PATRIOT]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

UBI means fewer people will drop out of school for a lifetime of shit min wage jobs, and these people will go on to better living standards and higher income therefore growing the economy.

That's what they said about welfare, and look how that turned out! A guaranteed income of $15,000 a year is going to help people have better standards of living, and help grow the economy? Did you fail math and economics in school? $15,000 a year doesn't even cover or come close to covering rent/housing charges in this day and age!

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

UBI means people will have more options to afford childcare or eldercare needs and will work more or go back to school or start a business.

It's clear to me that you have NO idea how much child care costs in this day and age. I don't have kids myself, but I have friends who have struggled to find/pay for/sustain child care for one or more kids, because both parents are working. Even with decent jobs, it's still a struggle to pay for child care.

The average cost of child care in Ontario is around $800-$1200 a month (or more), depending on the age of the child. Multiply that by twelve months, or add more than one kid and multiply that by twelve months.

One of my friends is paying in upwards of $1300 a month for child care. That's around $15,600 just for ONE kid. See the problem yet? Also take into consideration money spent on transportation, food and clothing for the kid, etc.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

UBI means less poverty which means less crime, less incarceration.

Yeah, right. Come to my city and say that. We have a problem here with transients/homeless/junkies/alcoholics that spend most of their time using their pogie or welfare cheques to buy more drugs and/or alcohol and repeat their own destructive cycles, no matter how much help they are given. Handing them UBI would contribute to crime and incarceration, because they would have additional means to spend MORE on their vices in new and more destructive ways.

The regulars here routinely panhandle, and then take that money and head to one of the local crack houses that is still operational, or to the downtown LCBO and buy a mickey or whatever they can afford (or steal, more often than not) instead of food or something important. City officials took an old motel in town, renovated it, and turned it into low-cost living for these people, and what happened? They still go out of their way to head downtown, panhandle, and buy drugs, alcohol, and some of the women prostitute themselves.

I don't think you grasp the fact that by giving people like this an UBI, the government will become the biggest enabler by far, and create a massive problem that will quickly spiral out of control and cause more harm than good.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Funny how conservatives are so obsessed with not spending a dime to help the supposedly “undeserving” members of society but they always have unlimited funds for mass imprisonment.

Funny how Liberals are so obsessed with vanity and their own egos while not spending a dime to help the people that really need it in ways that would benefit everyone, but they have unlimited funds to waste on their own narcissicm.

-J.

[llama66]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

UBI means fewer people will drop out of school for a lifetime of shit min wage jobs, and these people will go on to better living standards and higher income therefore growing the economy.

That's what they said about welfare, and look how that turned out! A guaranteed income of $15,000 a year is going to help people have better standards of living, and help grow the economy? Did you fail math and economics in school? $15,000 a year doesn't even cover or come close to covering rent/housing charges in this day and age!

-J.

So my rent is 1200/month, 1200*12= $14,400,

Any amount UBI could cover of that $14,400 would mean I maybe could afford Groceries or Utilities that month, were I a low income worker.

[herbie]

We've already determined thru CERB that $2000 a month is what's basic. And if you take a $2400 a month minimum wage job at Wendy's, that's not so shitty is it? You might want to take that job and not sneer at it or anyone who does,
If you're insistent on making sure people who "won't" work then do you oppose raising the basic personal exemption for those that do to $24,000?
I don't even hear any party offering to do that either,

[Freakinoldguy]

herbie herbie:

$1:

You guys keep bringing up tax clawbacks as an excuse for implementing the UBI so allow me to pose a question to you. If the gov't takes 100 dollars from my earned income in the form of taxes and gives it to you but, then takes 20 dollars back from you, who comes out ahead?

The gov't takes $100 out of your taxes and does whatever the fuck they want to with it, period. It doesn't go to some particular guy, never does, never has, it's not your anymore. Just the usual blabber about "my" tax dollars and the "why should I pay for someone else" bullshit Yanks use all the time to justify their shitty medical system.
Everyone gets $24,000. NOBODY pays taxes on the first $24,000 they earn. Maybe on the first $30,000. Taxes on earnings above that go up, hopefully offset with a GST increase on spending instead of earning like was the original intent of GST.
If your taxes increase $10,000 or even $20,000 after you've been handed $24,000 you're still ahead aren't you? If they tax it ALL away, it didn't cost you a cent. If they tax you even more, then you make a hell of a lot of money and no one has any sympathy.

Remember that the economy is NOT the stock market it's simply put: money moving and when it moves, the gov't gets some too. Not just from income tax. People have more money, they spend more money (some where you work) that makes more revenue for everyone. People without money actually cost us right now.
Less people are needed to distribute the UBI
More people can afford what you sell or make
The same people that piss it away will probably piss it away again. I see $60-$75K millworkers at the welfare office after a two week shutdown. I probably won't see some 20 year old smashing into the car to steal a radio if he's got money to spend.

Communism at it's finest. You have a job but the money you earn belongs to the state which means you're not working for the betterment of yourself but for the benefit of the state. Very motivational isn't it? But, if you don't want to work, like taking drugs, and have the desire to supplement your guaranteed gov't income by becoming a career criminal you're golden because the "States" money will just keep rolling in.

Strange concept that hasn't worked in any other communist country but you still haven't answered my question about who's better off. The guy who worked his ass off for the money the gov't took or the guy who sat at home, drank beer, smoked dope and played video games?

People also keep making the claim that going to a UBI will eliminate various levels of gov't bureaucracy. I'd believe that if the qualification for "entitlement" wasn't going to be one out of five Canadians a fact which means that the other programs like UI, Welfare and social services will still need to have a fully functioning gov't bureaucracy to administer.

So, like it or not this program will likely be layered onto the current ones meaning the cost will increase exponentially. Which brings me back to my original question. How does the gov't intend to pay for this new program especially since we'll have millions of people either out of work because of covid, automation or the layoffs from the gov't getting rid of all the other levels of the other bureaucracies, if they ever really intended to really get rid of them.

If you've noticed, homelessness, drug addiction and the mentally ill have become a growth industry for Canada. So if you take all the support agencies, police forces and medical personnel who administer to these people you'll decimate our economy which means they're never going to remove the bureaucracy.


Besides, this program isn't going to work the way they claim and all it'll do is destroy what's left of the economy after Covid 19. What they need to do is actually take their heads out of their asses and start thinking about the future and not just buying votes. UBI will become necessary at some point but before it can be implemented we need to find ways to fund it because as it stands now the "middle class" can't afford to fund it and the rich sure as hell won't be around to.

[llama66]

$1:

Communism at it's finest.

You say "Communism", but I'm not sure you know what the word means.
We're a "Social Democracy". Not a communist state. Please play again.

The rampant unchecked Capitalism, is what is going to destroy the economy. We're a consumer based economy, tell me... what happens to the economy when the consumers can't afford the baubles that keep the economy going?