CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 1331
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:35 pm
 


Dayseed wrote:
Sapio wrote:
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.


Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.


First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
 Toronto Maple Leafs
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 3196
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:37 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
Dayseed wrote:
Sapio wrote:
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.


Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.


First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.


Then what the hell is your point? Why bring up anything else if there is but a single mythmaker? If somebody pointed out that they thought they had found a lightsabre, bringing up that Family Guy spoofed Star Wars is all you've accomplished.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7594
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:38 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
Dayseed wrote:
Sapio wrote:
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. "stories". Most of it is stories, but some of the stuff he describes fits with the Minoan (for example). Plus, we do know that island in the Mediterranean have been attacked by earthquakes, volcanoes and waves. He took it to far and much was add to make it look great than it was. Yes, there was likely some Egypt in there was as well. So off the whole story, which may have been loses base on a oral tail, maybe only 3% base in history, but that 3% is still valuable to history's.

As for Homer, he have more evidence to support, but a lot of it was made up as well.


Sorry bud, but Plato specifically referred to Atlantis being beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. It ain't referred to as being in the Mediterranean. Other people who make up stuff beyond what Plato made up doesn't provide additional evidence.

And no, "there was likely some Egypt in there" doesn't bolster your point. Plato said that Socrates was speaking with an Egyptian priest about Atlantis. That's the reference point.

Atlantis isn't real. Neither is Darth Vader, Harry Potter, the Matrix, that teleporting Black Fortress from Krull, flux-capacitors or even Dr. Gregory House. The jury is out on oscillation overthrusters.


First of all, I have never said Atlantis was real. I have no idea were you got that form. 2nd Plato said the pillars of Hercules. There is a difference of scholarship of what that is, some say Straits of Gibraltar some say the near the Greek islands. Yes, he spoke with an Egyptian priest, but Minoan did a lot of trade with Egypt. I'm not, nor have I ever said that Atlantis was real I'm say that a small part of the myth is tied up in the larger historical narrative of the ancient Mediterranean world.


Actually, the Pillars of Hercules ARE the Straits of Gibraltar (what scholars says they aren't?) and you're still trying to force other epochs into Plato's account (like the Minoan). This is a fictional tale. Plato's Atlantis exists only in Timaeus and Critias. That's the only history at play here.


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 1331
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:49 pm
 


May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
 Toronto Maple Leafs
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 3196
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:00 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.


So historians should go looking for truth in Robin Hood, King Arthur and Sinbad?

Most of your stuff is pompous fluff, but I'll spot you one thing, Schlieman believed that Troy existed.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7594
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:12 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
May point is that Plato whether he made up the myth himself or got it from another sources must have used some part of history in it creation. There is no way he dreamed up a 100% new world and new people. This happens all the time in the creation of myth and fantasy. For example the Lord of the Rings is based in mid-evil ideas or Homers works are set in Bronze age Greece. Classic studies scholars are interested in what Plato know of history and myth how they were merged together. After all history is not the past, history is how the past is unperturbed today. Thus, the story of Atlantis is an important historical source on 4th century literature and myth. It should be written out as just some myth so guy made up, but needs to have litigate scholarship to fully understand its context and shape in the wider study of Plato works and classical world.


Huh? Plato made it up. It's not based on historical reality. There's no sunken continent beyond the Pillars of Hercules (I noticed you conveniently forgot to mention these "scholars" that don't think its the modern Straits of Gibraltar), there's no enlightened founding civilization - as he described it - at 9600 BCE and any credible historian doesn't equate it with Homeric works - which were common property of Greeks and possessed collaborating contemporary evidence - because it's the work of ONE man, ONE source and its narrative (not spots, parts, or sections) isn't repeated in ANY contemporary works.

It's not the Minoan culture, it's not ancient Egypt, it's not Anatolia it's not historical. It's a tale put forth by Plato (one which is illustrative of political discourse), and only Plato, and unless you're going to invoke Edgar Cayce next, its historicity is, without question, weak.


Last edited by Mustang1 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Edmonton Oilers
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 8533
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:51 pm
 


[popcorn]


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 1331
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:19 pm
 


I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 8543
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:21 pm
 


Bacardi4206 wrote:
Much like has just happened to that Mexican island where they blamed the CIA for it's dissapearance.
No why did you have to go and bring in the supernatural?


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7594
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:34 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.


Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 6574
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:57 pm
 


You seem to know Plato, Mustang. Was he a party animal ?


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7594
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:03 pm
 


Proculation wrote:
You seem to know Plato, Mustang. Was he a party animal ?


Would it matter?


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 4117
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:13 pm
 


fifeboy wrote:
Bacardi4206 wrote:
Much like has just happened to that Mexican island where they blamed the CIA for it's dissapearance.
No why did you have to go and bring in the supernatural?


Big discussion on myths above, seemed a good fit.


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 1331
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:25 pm
 


Mustang1 wrote:
Sapio wrote:
I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.


Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.


Yes it has historically value for us, about Plato's time. That all I have ever said.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7594
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:27 pm
 


Sapio wrote:
Mustang1 wrote:
Sapio wrote:
I agree on all of that, but Plato had to have used some history and of culture. He was part of a culture and he had to fit the story into his culture, in his time, thus the valve of the story is not in the details of time and space, but the value is what it tells us about Plato and his culture.


Just because Plato mentions historical realities amongst his fiction doesn't mean its any less fanciful. Alan Moore makes mention of Richard Nixon in The Watchmen, but that doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan lives on Mars. I saw F-22 Raptors in Transformers. They're real! They exist! Not Optimus Prime. And you'll notice no one is out looking for the Allspark just because its in a movie with Chevy Camoros and said movie was the creation of the Plato of our time, Michael Bay.

Plato was using Atlantis as a tool for discourse. That's it. Yes, it has intrinsic cultural value, but not archaeologically. And not historically.


Yes it has historically value for us, about Plato's time. That all I have ever said.

[B-o]


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.