[Arctic_Menace]

These guys are my new heroes! I've been reading up on them, and the stuff they did, just makes me say out loud: "Oh my God, you guys are my heroes!"



How many people here agree or disagree with that statement?

[ShepherdsDog]

So a 7 foot tall bisexual autocrat and and a 5 foot tall Italian megalomaniac are your heroes?

[xerxes]

Napoleon is quite the character I'll admit. The wars he instigated only really played themeselves out in World War 1 not to mention all the battles he won by the sheer force of his character.

[Arctic_Menace]

For what they did, not because of who they are. Peter the Great did alot of amazing things for Russia, and pretty much kicked Charles XII of Sweden's ass, and got alot of territory for Russia.


If you got a problem with someone being bisexual and 7 feet tall.......


And Napoleon was from Corsica. Not full blown Italian, and not full blown French.


Peter the Great, went to Holland to learn about shipbuilding and canal building. This allowed him to create Russia's first navy and allowed him to build St. Petersburg.



Napoleon is my new hero aswell because he pretty muc said: "You know what? Screw waiting for the French Government to negotiate a treaty, I'll do it here and now and get a better deal for France.

So he skips the middle-man, negotiates a treaty that gets the Austrians(Hapsburgs) out of most of Italy and the Austrian Netherlands become property of the French.




And the French Government is all like: "Wait, WTF?!?!"

[Tman1]

Peter I killed and tortured his son Alexei, killed his other mistresses, had disasterous campaigns with the Ottomans but hey, even Russians say they liked him. Russians also liked Stalin and Lenin. He did however made several modernization reforms for Russia which I suppose is some sort of accomplishment. You might also note he founded St Petersburg...good times eh? You want a Russian leader? Look at Ivan the Terrible...

As for Napoleon, I can understand why. The man who kept coming back for more....and not dying. Josephine? What a looker eh? However his boneheaded move on Russia was not his best....

[ShepherdsDog]

Quote:

And Napoleon was from Corsica. Not full blown Italian, and not full blown French.

His family, both paternal and maternal lines, moved to Corsica from Italy before the Italians lost it to the French, in 1768, the year before he was born. He changed the spelling of his family name, from Buonaparte to Bonoparte, to make it look more Gallic. Joseph was born Giuseppe, Napoleon was Napoleone and all of his other siblings followed suit, changing their names.

[xerxes]

That, and he never managed to finish off the Spanish.

One thing I'm always amazed by is how the Austians always kept coming back for more. At least 3 times the Austrians raised a sizeable army only for Boney to slap them down again.

[Tman1]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

Quote:

And Napoleon was from Corsica. Not full blown Italian, and not full blown French.

His family, both paternal and maternal lines, moved to Corsica from Italy before the Italians lost it to the French, in 1768, the year before he was born. He changed the spelling of his family name, from Buonaparte to Bonoparte, to make it look more Gallic. Joseph was born Giuseppe, Napoleon was Napoleone and all of his other siblings followed suit, changing their names.

It was in 1769 that transfer of authority was given to France, one year after Napoleon was born. His father was born on Corsica, not Italy and the Buonaparte (Bonaparte) family lineage can also trace lineages from Corsica 5 or 6 generations back. The first Bonaparte moved to Corsica from Florence Italy in the 16th century.

[Arctic_Menace]

Tman1 wrote:

However his boneheaded move on Russia was not his best....

Nor was his move on Spain.


Shepherd's Dog, I know that Peter the Great did some pretty nasty stuff during his reign, but he did some good things too. He opened Russia to the West, and without him, Russia would not have become what it has become.

Yes, he tortured his son. Yes, thousands died during the construction of St. Petersburg, but remember the Russian proverb: "No sacrifice is too great". This tactic greatly helped Russia when she was fighting Sweden.

Peter the Great went out and about, and at one point became an apprentice. The master offered Peter a big sac of money because he was the Czar of Russia. Peter said no, and that he wanted to be paid what the man would pay a normal apprentice. Peter was then paid the normal amount and went out and bought a pair of shoes. He then was said to have walked around town saying: "I earned the money to pay for these shoes!"


He also saved the lives of his men, who were drowning. This was his last act in life. Pretty selfless........

[ShepherdsDog]

The families, minor Italian nobility, came over in the 1500's and in the 1600's from Florence and Genoa I believe. However up until 1769 Corsica was an Italian possession and its inhabitants were a hoge podge of ethnicity, the Buoaparte's being Italian aristocracy as were the Ramolinos, Napoleon's maternal family. If you are from BC or Ontario, you are still a Canadian. The same held for Corsica or Sicily, Sardinia, Genoa or Florence. They Gallicized their names for the sake of political expediency.

[Tman1]

Italy was not a unified governed state, and never was until 1861. Influence was mainly around the city-states like Florence, Genoa, Venice and other principalites. Corsica was not a part of Italy, it was controlled by Genoa and then handed over to the French. There wasn't even the concept of being Italian then.

[Virgil]

Arctic_Menace wrote:

These guys are my new heroes! I've been reading up on them, and the stuff they did, just makes me say out loud: "Oh my God, you guys are my heroes!"



How many people here agree or disagree with that statement?

Somebody else might have already brought this up, I could say the same about a lot of past leaders, ie. Hitler, Stalin, Caesar...

Napoleon did several things to improve the conditions in France, several of wich still exist today (probably somewhat modified...), his bank, his domestic policies, his nationalisme. And wars are really interesting for guys like us to read about but were they great for all the soldiers and civilians back then? Napoleon's nationalistic effect on the people would only hold out for so long with the taxes steadily increasing to fund his wars.

And what was with his Russian campaigne? (I think it was his second that he was defeated am I right, after Alexandre left the Bloc?)

I don't know too much about Peter the Great, I'll read about him tomorrow. But he was probably an absolutiste nut case like the rest of them. And is the conquest of Sweden that great of thing? Good for the Russians maybe.

[Arctic_Menace]

Peter the Great kicked Charles the XII off of the mainland. It is great for Russians because it opened up a sea port for them, opening them up to the west.

[Mustang1]

Virgil wrote:

I don't know too much about Peter the Great, I'll read about him tomorrow. But he was probably an absolutiste nut case like the rest of them.

Just because a past leader is classified as an absolute rule, doesn’t automatically make them “nut cases”. Sometimes historical cases need to be examined within their cultural milieu. Besides, the Divine Right of Kings could be politically successful – just look up Louis XIV

[Arctic_Menace]

Mustang1 wrote:

Virgil wrote:

I don't know too much about Peter the Great, I'll read about him tomorrow. But he was probably an absolutiste nut case like the rest of them.

Just because a past leader is classified as an absolute rule, doesn’t automatically make them “nut cases”. Sometimes historical cases need to be examined within their cultural milieu. Besides, the Divine Right of Kings could be politically successful – just look up Louis XIV

Plus, the Russians are famous for their use of the "scorched earth" strategy.


And their proverb: "No sacrifice too great."