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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:49 pm
 


stratos stratos:
Ok couple of questions.

1) What exactly is a status card. By having one does it mean you get some sort of extra money. Is it like a ATM card each month a certin ammount of money is put into the account and you can use the card to get the money?

2) Are First Nations people considered Canadian or fall under certin tribal headings like here in the US.

Native Americans are not citisense of the US while on the reservation the fall under tribal Athurity. Best example of what I mean is that if we, the US, start a draft again all native americans are exempt. They can not be forced like an american citizen to join the military.

I'm sure I'm not explaining myself very well but I think you get the drift of my question.


1) A status/treaty card does nothing except identify you as an individual with rights based on the treaties that the Crown and the original inhabitants of the land agreed to. Along with the $5 a year, you also get certain tax exemptions when purchasing goods or services on reserve or working on reserve.

2) All Canadian First Nation people are Canadians and afforded all the rights and obligations as all other Canadians, except they do get 1/3 less in education funding and 1/3 less (approximately) for child welfare services. According to the federal government this is fair because the services offered by the province (health, education and social services for everyone but Status Indians) cannot be compared to the services that are offered by the federal government.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:52 pm
 


I doubrt more money would make much difference. Throwing money at the problem in the past hasn't helped a bit.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:10 pm
 


Well you can throw your money into more of Harper's jails @ $100,000 per person per year or you can put that toward education and I'll hire that same person.

Ten years of jail cost society a million dollars. Fully funding someone K-12 costs us an extra $36,000 (12 years).

One year on welfare costs much more that the $3,000 it costs us to get Native kids education funding up to par.

Tell you what - I'll pay for the education costs of one person if you pay for the cost of keeping someone in jail.

I honestly do not understand how educating children EQUALLY who are at the highest risk of being a burden on Canadian society is "throwing money at the problem".

Throwing money at the problem is declining to pay $36,000 over 13 years so that we can pay at least that per year for welfare or triple that for jail at some point down the road.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:11 pm
 


Oooooo....rookie mistake!

You are assuming that extra funding thrown at problem will go to problem.

I have yet to see that happen reliably from any government...RoC or FN.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:26 pm
 


Really? Because in 1970 there were a handful of Natives who had a university degree. Now there are thousands and thousands.

It is unfortunate that you perpetuate this stereotype because at the end of the day you get to foot a nice chink of the bill.

It is hard to imagine how pessimistic one can be when they live in a country that is as rich as ours, but yet they are not willing to fund native children's education equally.

I believe the real fact is that if Native people were included in our economy and paying taxes and being successful that you would run out of people to complain about. For every Canadian in this world there are 200 people who live with lower standards of living.

Stop thinking about getting this population educated properly as an expense, think of it as an investment in our shared future. And if you run out of things to complain about you'll always have the Oilers.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:34 pm
 


GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
It is unfortunate that you perpetuate this stereotype because at the end of the day you get to foot a nice chink of the bill.

People who use the phrase "at the end of the day" ought to shampoo my crotch.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:41 pm
 


fifeboy fifeboy:
Now if you and others could get over your fear and loathing, Natives would have somewhere to start with their problems.


Natives don't need to worry about my feelings or the feelings of others to start addressing their problems.

Problems need to be addressed on a reserve/band level and for the finger pointing to stop.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:45 pm
 


GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
I honestly do not understand how educating children EQUALLY who are at the highest risk of being a burden on Canadian society is "throwing money at the problem".

Throwing money at the problem is declining to pay $36,000 over 13 years so that we can pay at least that per year for welfare or triple that for jail at some point down the road.


You assume that'll make a difference.

You act like increasing funding will suddenly make the education system on reserves World class without the troubles of finding teachers.

It's unrealistic.

History has shown that increasing funding to our First Nations had done nothing to solve the problems on reserves.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:13 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:

History has shown that increasing funding to our First Nations had done nothing to solve the problems on reserves.


Even if you are right we live in a society where equality is a must. That means a child anywhere in Canada should be entitled to the same access to education as any other child.

I have been watching and I have seen many, many positive changes in my lifetime. There are many children from all sorts of FN's that have done brilliant things. There are many projects that have vastly improved the standards of living in hundreds of communities.

What does Canada mean to you? Does it mean that inequality is OK when you decide that investing in the future of children is too expensive because you have been programmed to read the news about wasted money and frauds. Or is your tunnel vision so bad that you cannot see that keeping one kid out of jail for 1 year pays for 33 kids to have a better chance of success.

I am ashamed that as the richest of the richest countries Canadians still make excuses for inequality.

Equal funding will make a difference. There is no doubt in my mind as an employer if a kid comes and he has been taught basics, he's had a chance to live and learn in a prosperous environment that values education, I can employ him and mentor him into a well paid tax paying member of our society. If you chose to short change him before he gets here, I guarantee that there is nothing I can do for him. Our work is not rocket science. If he's not going to latch on here, his chances of latching on anywhere but the welfare line or jail is probably more likely.

When the bill comes from those costs, it will be passed along to you. Look at your pay-stub now, and in twenty years when your pay has risen 25% but your taxes have doubled look me up so I can say I told you so.

And at the end of the day its $25 for a crotch shampoo, plus tip (lol no pun intended).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:24 pm
 


GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:

Even if you are right we live in a society where equality is a must. That means a child anywhere in Canada should be entitled to the same access to education as any other child.


Equality isn't a must. It never has been. Also remember, equality is a two way street.

You cannot have a completely different tax and government structure and expect things to be exactly like they are in Cities and Towns where people pay thousands in property taxes.

Equality isn't just about "I want what he has". "He" is governed differently and pays far more in taxes to support his community.

GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
What does Canada mean to you? Does it mean that inequality is OK when you decide that investing in the future of children is too expensive because you have been programmed to read the news about wasted money and frauds. Or is your tunnel vision so bad that you cannot see that keeping one kid out of jail for 1 year pays for 33 kids to have a better chance of success.

I am ashamed that as the richest of the richest countries Canadians still make excuses for inequality.


I prefer to deal with root causes and lack of education funding isn't a root cause. Natives and people like yourself love to perpetuate the myth that more money solves more problems. Your argument is no different yet the results will be the same.

Inequality is a fact of life. Time to accept that reality.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:30 pm
 


How many ethnic groups are there living in Canada? Let's be conservative in our estimate. Would there be 50? Of the 50, which ethnic group is the most impoverished, most disadvantaged, least integrated, most discriminated against, least educated and most represented in the federal prison population? The answer, of course, is Natives.

The next question is, of the 50 ethnic groups, which one has different legal status from all the rest? There is correlation. Profound and compelling correlation. Where there is statistical correlation, there is solution. The first step to a solution is to end status. Native Canadians must be Canadian first. They must be no different, before the government and the law, than Irish Canadians, Scottish Canadians, Jamaican Canadians, Chinese Canadians, etc. That's the first step. There will be no second step before that first one.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:32 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
The next question is, of the 50 ethnic groups, which one has different legal status from all the rest? There is correlation. Profound and compelling correlation. Where there is statistical correlation, there is solution. The first step to a solution is to end status. Native Canadians must be Canadian first. They must be no different, before the government and the law, than Irish Canadians, Scottish Canadians, Jamaican Canadians, Chinese Canadians, etc. That's the first step. There will be no second step before that first one.



R=UP


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:41 pm
 


GeeGeeMcFee GeeGeeMcFee:
Well you can throw your money into more of Harper's jails @ $100,000 per person per year or you can put that toward education and I'll hire that same person.

Ten years of jail cost society a million dollars. Fully funding someone K-12 costs us an extra $36,000 (12 years).

One year on welfare costs much more that the $3,000 it costs us to get Native kids education funding up to par.

Tell you what - I'll pay for the education costs of one person if you pay for the cost of keeping someone in jail.

I honestly do not understand how educating children EQUALLY who are at the highest risk of being a burden on Canadian society is "throwing money at the problem".

Throwing money at the problem is declining to pay $36,000 over 13 years so that we can pay at least that per year for welfare or triple that for jail at some point down the road.


Education is great. If we could get the kids into school it would be great. I've been to some northern reserves where brand spanking new schools have been turned into derelict outhouses in a few years. In those places, you have massive substance abuse issues and not much for teh kids to do, and not much opportunity for them.

The government spent how much moving that Labrador community bcasue 10-year-olds were huffing gasoline and talking about how they wanted to die. A quarter of the population had attmepted suicide. 80% of the women were abused. Yaddda yadda yadda. The feds spent $200 million ot move the community. But the problems have followed the community. Now it's 7-year-olds huffing gas. And the band played on.

I like Indians. Always have. But I can't help but think I'm witnessing a culture in its death throes.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:46 pm
 


Actually the constitution of this country guarantees equality. You can argue against it all you want, but the Supreme Court has ruled over and over again that people must be treated equally and fairly and that, in the most recent court case, Native children are to have dollar for dollar equal access to care from the government as any other child in this country.

Furthermore if you want to end special status for Canadian Indians you must re-evaluate the agreements that have been signed that permit Canada to occupy lands that were ceded through treaty to the Crown. I agree that Natives should not have any special rights if we have fulfilled our legal obligations to them.

The legacy of those agreements is what gives them special recognition in our constitution. If you can find a lawyer with half a brain and ask him about the ramifications of unilaterally dissolving those agreements you will see his head pop off quite quickly with an array of case law, international law and property law spewing forth.

I do not with to assume that anyone here is ignorant to the fact that there is no legal way that the government alone without Indians at the table would be even remotely tempted to travel down that path. As you can see from our history of land claims and disputes regarding the history of the nation that hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid to FN's because of past frauds and abuses. AGAIN these are not pity payments, these are legal settlements.

So you can sit on your asses and hope that someday the Indians figure out how to educate their kids with 2/3 the resources everyone else gets - or you can realize that the path is clear. Equal funding for an equal education so that all of us benefit.

The bottom line is education. My guess is that you spend the money now to fully educate the coming generations that some of the educated ones will leave the reserve and return with good ideas, or stay in the city and work, or invent new ways to crate economies in those desolate places so that we can all be better off.

We do have the money, we are the richest people in the world. Invest it other Canadians, set aside your resentments and ignorance and let them join us as equal partners, as that is my interpretation of this whole treaty business anyways.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:50 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The government spent how much moving that Labrador community bcasue 10-year-olds were huffing gasoline and talking about how they wanted to die. A quarter of the population had attmepted suicide. 80% of the women were abused. Yaddda yadda yadda. The feds spent $200 million ot move the community. But the problems have followed the community. Now it's 7-year-olds huffing gas. And the band played on.


You should do some research and find out why they were moved, and I'll bet you'll see a legacy of inept thinking from the government. And I'd bet a whole dollar that this is maybe not the first or even the second move.

Let me know. I've got crotches to shampoo. :lol:


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