[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

Did you know that most jobs offered lately that are not above the $50K/yr range, are mostly casual? That most employers do not offer benefits what so ever?
(at least here it is.)

That's part of the effect of a social welfare nanny state. Businesses dispense with benefits as those benefits are provided by government (health care and retirement) and then the additional tax load on business to subsidize those government benefits eats up the portion of profit firms used to dedicate to benefits.

[BartSimpson]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

Index to minimum wage? I haven't heard that in Canada. In Canada the Unions talk about CEO wages as a reference point. They shoot up, not down.

Your broader point is correct though, I admit. If you increase minimum wage the tier above gets pushed up as well. If you increase minimum wage for some workers their immediate supervisor will need a pay increase, for example.

Here's a whole pile of refernces on the topic:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... pQStpcX0CA

[Bruce_the_vii]

One of the issues with minimum wage is that it's women that had children and went back to work that wind up with the service jobs. They don't spend years carving out a specialty rather they wind up in retail and that. It's something young women have to decide about, to forgo a lengthy training to have family instead. It's still the basis of our society. Tim Hortons and that are run by Moms, in Toronto it's immigrant Moms, and they work hard for their money.

[Brenda]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

One of the issues with minimum wage is that it's women that had children and went back to work that wind up with the service jobs. They don't spend years carving out a specialty rather they wind up in retail and that. It's something young women have to decide about, to forgo a lengthy training to have family instead. It's still the basis of our society. Tim Hortons and that are run by Moms, in Toronto it's immigrant Moms, and they work hard for their money.

[ASLplease]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

One of the issues with minimum wage is that it's women that had children and went back to work that wind up with the service jobs.

Bruce, your arguement fallacy is a classic case of Argumentum ad misericordiam (argument or appeal to pity). The English translation pretty much says it all.

Women dont lose good paying jobs when they go out on maternity leave to have children - at least not anymore - It is illegal to do that to them these day.

It's not 'women' that end up with the service jobs, because if I was to do the same thing as many women do, I'd end up with the same fate.

Simply put, it is any worker that drops out of the workforce that winds up with the service jobs.

[Brenda]

You forget that a lot of couples choose for the woman to either work part time, or become a stay at home mom. Some careers (a lot...) are not available part time.

You CAN'T do what a woman does, because you lack the body, and the emotional connection they have with their kids, which is different than for dads.

Also, immigrants have to start at the bottom...

[ASLplease]

Brenda Brenda:

You forget that a lot of couples choose for the woman to either work part time, or become a stay at home mom. Some careers (a lot...) are not available part time.

I haven't forgotten that a lot of couples choose for one of the spouses to either work part time, or become a stay at home parent.....often the woman.

[Bruce_the_vii]

One of the other problems is that low wages are pervasive, there's rather a lot of people trying to get out of the hole of low wages - so there's competition for the jobs a step up. In Canada some 23% of workers earn less than $12 an hour (Statistics Canada, 2007) and many people are stuck there.

Thanks for the link Bart, a varity of comments on minimum wage there. I didn't know you could link to a Google search.

[Brenda]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

One of the other problems is that low wages are pervasive, there's rather a lot of people trying to get out of the hole of low wages - so there's competition for the jobs a step up. In Canada some 23% of workers earn less than $12 an hour (Statistics Canada, 2007) and many people are stuck there.

And that is NOT a living wage, especially not when you have kids...

[Bruce_the_vii]

ASLplease ASLplease:

Bruce, your arguement fallacy is a classic case of Argumentum ad misericordiam (argument or appeal to pity). The English translation pretty much says it all.

The fallacy with your arguement in turn is you for got the wife, your care taker and mother of your children, is pretty much God to you.

[ASLplease]

Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:

ASLplease ASLplease:

Bruce, your arguement fallacy is a classic case of Argumentum ad misericordiam (argument or appeal to pity). The English translation pretty much says it all.

The fallacy with your arguement in turn is you for got the wife, your care taker and mother of your children, is pretty much God to you.

lol I almost never forget my wife, and when i do, she demands my attention.

All I am saying is you are trying to connect my apreciation for my wife(for having my children), to the poor job conditions that many workers experience if they are returning to work after a long leave.

Because we have legislated maternity leave where the womans job is protected for 50 weeks, These two things dont logically connect anymore.

Now, I'm not against having empathy for people that can only find service jobs when they return to the workforce, but I think its important to be clear on the fact that women that suffer from this have made a decision to drop out of the workforce for a period longer than the 50 week legislation allows for ie, it is not the child baring that causes this, its their dropping out of the workforce that does it.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Yes, but that is what women do. The minimum wage increase is sold by it's importance to family, women. The culture is still about a good family life.

The jobs being generated are not that good and it's a social issue. In 30 years good jobs will be even harder to find than now. So skewing the jobs market upward by squeezing the bottom is one thing you can do. Good jobs is part of social order.

[BartSimpson]

In Sacramento yesterday it was announced that the high school drop out rate is 25% and then the graduation rate for the remainder is around 60%.

Meaning half of the kids who start high school leave it without a diploma.

And then they find they can't get jobs because, quite literally, they are not worth the minimum wage.

So we have the choice of having a permanent underclass with no hope of employment or we can abolish a repressive and artificial wage law and let these people obtain jobs.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Lots of jobs are pretty work-a-day - don't require an education. Maybe half the jobs in the economy don't require more than high school. This idea that people that work at these jobs for 40 hours a week, do a good job and try hard for the company aren't worth minimum wage is a little cranky. All those kids that drop out will tell you they are hard workers. Lots of people will tell you the issue is hard work, and overlook that the working class logs long hard hours. It's the American right wing way, blaming the poor for poverty - make them take resposibility for the system.

Dropping out of high school isn't a great idea. However the statistic is skewed. The figures I've seen on it are many of these drop outs eventual complete high school later. The numbers in the general population are better than the high school drop out rate.

Here in Toronto the Black, Caribean descent, drop out rate is 40%. It's, like, bad news.

[andyt]

The West is gutting it's middle class by moving manufacturing overseas. Means that there are a few jobs at the high end and lots of low income service jobs. There is just no way, no matter how much education people get, for everybody to find those high paying high skill jobs. Do we really want to create a society with two stark tiers, those few that have a good income and the many that work for shit wages? What kills me is that I don't have the impression that the people posting that they're OK with this have the kinds of skills that will put them in that ueber class. So it's coming for them too, unless you're close to retirment, but your kids for sure. Just a bunch of Joe the Plumbers.