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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:08 pm
 


I vowed never to use that one. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:09 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Exceeding the speed limit may be the norm, but the roads are still designed for specific speeds. You will see the frequency of multi car crashes increase with speed. next time you hear of one, see whether it is in Ontario, or Alberta. ;)
The 401 in Ontario was built to handle speeds of 120 km/h and at one point was 113 (80M/h) before it was lowered because of an oil crisis in the 70s. If people were driving on it with 70s vehicle technology at a higher rate of speed than we are now, I'm pretty sure it's safe to drive at a higher speed.

Not to mention, once again, the 85% percentile rule.
$1:
$1:
Speeding Statistics

27% of traffic fatalities on Canadian roads are the direct result of speeding. (Carsurance.net, 2020)
Reports indicate that the main factor contributing to motorcycle fatalities in Canada was motorcycle speed, causing 12% of the deaths. (Carsurance.net, 2020)
According to the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, 40% of speeding drivers were aged 16-24. 80% of young adult passengers who were killed in a car crash were being driven by a similar-aged driver. (Carsurance.net, 2020)
In 2011, one in three speeding drivers involved in a fatal crash had been drinking. (Transport Canada, 2011)
Teens are more likely than older drivers to speed and allow shorter following distances. (Texas A&M Transportation Institute, 2019)
A survey of Canadian drivers in 2019 found that only 27% of them never drive at well over the posted speed limit.
National data shows that even a 10-mph speed increase ups the risk of a crash by 9.1%. (Fortune, 2016)
Teens do not consider driving at 5 to 10 mph above the speed limit to be dangerous. (Texas A&M Transportation Institute, 2019)


https://tests.ca/driving-statistics/

None of those stats enumerate on the speed at which people were going. Saying "Speeding" can be anything from 1 over to 100 over. The only one is that the 10-mph speed increase increases the risk of a crash by 9.1%. Which there is also data to support the other direction.

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

The U.S. Department of transportation found a different finding. Additionally, they found the stated speed limit does almost nothing to dictate how fast the majority of drivers will drive. That they will largely find the speed which the road is designed to be traveled at, and go that speed.



$1:

The Highway Traffic Act isn't democratic. It doesn't change just because the cops don't enforce it. Because one day, they will.

Not really. Look at pot usage. That was illegal and I'd be hard pressed to find any one of my (many) pot smoking friends that ever received more than a "just don't make it so obvious" while having it confiscated. Police are well aware of public attitude and their behaviour. I wouldn't be surprised if around here even judges would ask why someone was pulled over for going 110 on the 401. Because he probably did it driving into work. As did the cop. And almost everyone else in the building.

The speed law are antiquated garbage and need to be changed to reflect currently technology and public attitude. People drive the same speed regardless, so why not make it so that 90% of the population isn't "breaking the law" every day.


Last edited by Tricks on Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:10 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Tricks Tricks:
The correct way of setting a speed limit is using the 85th percentile measure. I.e. if 85% of motorists go 120 or less, that should be the speed limit. Provided the road is designed to handle that speed.


*BZZZZT*

The correct way for setting up a speed limit is physics. Centripetal force. Grip on road surfaces. Distance and time between important milestones, like signs.

Signs can be added. Roads are already designed with speed in mind, most of which have lower speed limits than. Try again.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:11 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Tricks Tricks:
raydan raydan:
What I don't get is why should anybody complain when another car is going at the speed limit and not 20kh over it? As long as he's in his lane, not the passing lane and respects all the rules. On some major highways, there's a minimum speed you have to maintain so we should even be OK with cars going at that speed... even if we don't like it.

You have old drivers, beginners and others with driving anxiety on the road... you're making it worst if you ride their bumper and lean on your horn.

I'm by no means suggesting that people be tail gated. I keep a healthy distance between me and the car in front of me regardless of speed. I will pass someone going too slow when it is safe to do so. However if you're going to drive 90 in the far left lane, you deserve to be pulled over by the police. That's fucking dangerous.


And that's the reason driving in the passing lane is illegal.

Drive in the GTA and tell me people should be charged for driving in the passing lane. You'd effectively make the traffic problem around Toronto 30% worse.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:12 pm
 


raydan raydan:
Tricks Tricks:
raydan raydan:
What I don't get is why should anybody complain when another car is going at the speed limit and not 20kh over it? As long as he's in his lane, not the passing lane and respects all the rules. On some major highways, there's a minimum speed you have to maintain so we should even be OK with cars going at that speed... even if we don't like it.

You have old drivers, beginners and others with driving anxiety on the road... you're making it worst if you ride their bumper and lean on your horn.

I'm by no means suggesting that people be tail gated. I keep a healthy distance between me and the car in front of me regardless of speed. I will pass someone going too slow when it is safe to do so. However if you're going to drive 90 in the far left lane, you deserve to be pulled over by the police. That's fucking dangerous.

I did say "...not the passing lane, and respects all the rules", so don't go putting words in my mouth Tricks, because that's for kids. :wink:

Wasn't intended to imply you said that. That's my bad. I've encountered that (far too often) on the 401. Makes my blood boil.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:15 pm
 


Why do you all remind me of Helen Lovejoy?



Keep pearl clutching :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:17 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I vowed never to use that one. ;)

I never made that promise.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:09 pm
 


Tricks Tricks:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Tricks Tricks:
The correct way of setting a speed limit is using the 85th percentile measure. I.e. if 85% of motorists go 120 or less, that should be the speed limit. Provided the road is designed to handle that speed.


*BZZZZT*

The correct way for setting up a speed limit is physics. Centripetal force. Grip on road surfaces. Distance and time between important milestones, like signs.

Signs can be added. Roads are already designed with speed in mind, most of which have lower speed limits than. Try again.


"You canna change the laws of Physics" - Mr. Scott.

You can't easily widen a road to handle the needed lane width for faster traffic. You can't change the force your car exerts on the road at a given speed. If the road can't handle keeping your car on the road surface, you wind up in a ditch at best.

These are the things that are taken into when they are built, from the excavation of dirt to replacement with crushed gravel to handle the load and not easily fall into disrepair, to the the banking and angles of road surface. Making a road that was built for 90, and bumped up to 100 in the 70s, then to run at 120 will not be safe.

I don't know about the roads where you are, but around here you can see these sections of a freeway where the prep work for the road was done poorly, and a portion of the road has sunk. You'll see a dark patch, where vehicles bounce and dirt and grease fall of the vehicle. These bumps are nothing at the speed limit, but I suspect that they are the cause of accidents when people are speeding. It would be interesting to have some grant money to find out, because I know the effects of these road hazards when you are racing. They can be the difference between staying on the road surface, and having to be towed out of a gravel trap.

Tricks Tricks:
Drive in the GTA and tell me people should be charged for driving in the passing lane. You'd effectively make the traffic problem around Toronto 30% worse.


I don't know that Ontario has that law. I do know that Alberta has it, and during rush hour it is not followed nor enforced.

But after that window, it is enforced. $225 fine. And I read that BC is quite adamant about it.

Tricks Tricks:

$1:
The Highway Traffic Act isn't democratic. It doesn't change just because the cops don't enforce it. Because one day, they will.

Not really. Look at pot usage. That was illegal and I'd be hard pressed to find any one of my (many) pot smoking friends that ever received more than a "just don't make it so obvious" while having it confiscated. Police are well aware of public attitude and their behaviour. I wouldn't be surprised if around here even judges would ask why someone was pulled over for going 110 on the 401. Because he probably did it driving into work. As did the cop. And almost everyone else in the building.

The speed law are antiquated garbage and need to be changed to reflect currently technology and public attitude. People drive the same speed regardless, so why not make it so that 90% of the population isn't "breaking the law" every day.


You are comparing the Highway Traffic Act, which was written with the specific goal of public safety in mind with an arbitrary law that prudes enacted because they don't know how to have fun.

Try again.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:08 pm
 


xerxes xerxes:
The thing I’m still not clear on; is who merged into who? The driver says she was getting on to the highway when it happened. Did she not see the truck? Or did the truck not see her? I assume since it’s the trucker who’s getting all the tickets, he’s at fault. But it’s still ambiguous to me. But there’s also a lot of people out there who think they can beat a truck and then find out painfully how much big rigs can’t stop on a dime.


Wasn’t she hit from behind before she got on the Gardiner?

Your expectation of privacy when driving should be far less than on the Internet. I’d have cameras everywhere as in Britain. In my opinion, speed plays a much larger role in crashes than is admitted, including driving too fast for the conditions (but under the posted speed limit). For a fair bit of the year in NL nobody should be doing the speed limit.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:05 am
 


$1:
And that's the reason driving in the passing lane is illegal.

That's why it's all over the news when they enforce that law once every 20 years or so.
Have any of you ever even met someone charged with that? Compare that with the number of people you know who got speeding tickets because they HAD TO speed to pass the roadhog in front of them?
Exceeding the posted limit passing is still speeding. That's why if there's a cop in the line and you've been stuck behind that 75kmh logging truck for half an hour through the no passing zones and come to the pazzing lane, you know the truck will boost it to 110 in the right lane and you'd be liable for "excessive speding" if you pass him. Stop for a pee time.....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:17 am
 


*cough*

I bet they were all doing the same speed too. ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:11 am
 


Tricks Tricks:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Exceeding the speed limit may be the norm, but the roads are still designed for specific speeds. You will see the frequency of multi car crashes increase with speed. next time you hear of one, see whether it is in Ontario, or Alberta. ;)


The 401 in Ontario was built to handle speeds of 120 km/h and at one point was 113 (80M/h) before it was lowered because of an oil crisis in the 70s. If people were driving on it with 70s vehicle technology at a higher rate of speed than we are now, I'm pretty sure it's safe to drive at a higher speed.

Not to mention, once again, the 85% percentile rule.


Have you ever looked at highway fatalities in the 1970s and 1980s? There were much higher back then then they are now. Here's what Stats Can has on an archived page:

$1:
Over the past 25 years (1979 vs 2004), the annual number of Canadians who died from motor vehicle accidents dropped by 52%, from 5,933 in 1979 to 2,875 in 2004.


Driving back then was anything but safe.

Yes, part of that is due to safer vehicles, but it also comes from better road design, better rules for setting speed limits and other factors. For example, cloverleaf interchanges were common on highways across North America for a long time, but in the past few decades, we've realized there are better options, such as partial cloverleaf interchanges, which are safer and have fewer crashes.

Same goes for roundabouts , which are springing up all over the place because they eliminate T-bone/left turn accidents, which often lead to serious injuries and/or fatalities. Obviously, they don't work well on freeways or high volume roads, but work very well at less busy intersections.



Tricks Tricks:
None of those stats enumerate on the speed at which people were going. Saying "Speeding" can be anything from 1 over to 100 over. The only one is that the 10-mph speed increase increases the risk of a crash by 9.1%. Which there is also data to support the other direction.

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

The U.S. Department of transportation found a different finding. Additionally, they found the stated speed limit does almost nothing to dictate how fast the majority of drivers will drive. That they will largely find the speed which the road is designed to be traveled at, and go that speed.


Even a few km/h over can be catastrophic (and it's much worse when doing 100 km/h in a 100 zone):





Tricks Tricks:
The speed law are antiquated garbage and need to be changed to reflect currently technology and public attitude. People drive the same speed regardless, so why not make it so that 90% of the population isn't "breaking the law" every day.


Speed limits should NEVER be set to reflect "public attitude", they should be set based on collision history, collision severity, engineering and the types of vehicles and people using the road.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:26 am
 


Tricks Tricks:
Why do you all remind me of Helen Lovejoy?



Keep pearl clutching :lol:


Yeah, I sped lots when I was young too.

Then I grew up and realized that if I wanted to get somewhere two minutes earlier, I could just listen to traffic reports and just leave a bit earlier if traffic was bad.

I've been lucky and only gotten a handful of tickets in my life, most of them in the 80s or 90s, and the last one I got was a photo radar ticket in 2005. Since then, nada. I can think of better things to spend my time and money on then speeding tickets.

When I get on the highway, I set my cruise control at the posted speed limit and drive. If I need to pass a slow moving semi, then I do. If someone wants to pass me, go for it, I don't care. And I certainly don't care if my buddy gets to Calgary 15 minutes before I do because he chose to do 125.

To me, following the speed limit is no different than getting a flu shot (or the COVID vaccine when it's my turn), exercising, eating right and all the rest. It's something designed to help me live a longer life, which I'm all for. If someone wants to rush to their tombstone (or more likely a speeding ticket), that's their prerogative, but I have little pity for them when the odds catch up to them.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:54 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
You can't easily widen a road to handle the needed lane width for faster traffic. You can't change the force your car exerts on the road at a given speed. If the road can't handle keeping your car on the road surface, you wind up in a ditch at best.
Completely ignoring that many roads handle a higher speed than the posted speed limit.
$1:
These are the things that are taken into when they are built, from the excavation of dirt to replacement with crushed gravel to handle the load and not easily fall into disrepair, to the the banking and angles of road surface. Making a road that was built for 90, and bumped up to 100 in the 70s, then to run at 120 will not be safe.
The 401 was built for 120.

$1:
I don't know that Ontario has that law. I do know that Alberta has it, and during rush hour it is not followed nor enforced.

But after that window, it is enforced. $225 fine. And I read that BC is quite adamant about it.

I'm not aware of that law in Ontario. If it exists, it's never enforced. I assume it doesn't exist based off that.

$1:
You are comparing the Highway Traffic Act, which was written with the specific goal of public safety in mind with an arbitrary law that prudes enacted because they don't know how to have fun.

Try again.

You really think there aren't antiquated parts of the highway traffic act? And that some laws in it aren't arbitrary?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:15 pm
 


bootlegga bootlegga:
Have you ever looked at highway fatalities in the 1970s and 1980s? There were much higher back then then they are now. Here's what Stats Can has on an archived page:

$1:
Over the past 25 years (1979 vs 2004), the annual number of Canadians who died from motor vehicle accidents dropped by 52%, from 5,933 in 1979 to 2,875 in 2004.


Driving back then was anything but safe.

Yes, part of that is due to safer vehicles, but it also comes from better road design, better rules for setting speed limits and other factors. For example, cloverleaf interchanges were common on highways across North America for a long time, but in the past few decades, we've realized there are better options, such as partial cloverleaf interchanges, which are safer and have fewer crashes.

Same goes for roundabouts , which are springing up all over the place because they eliminate T-bone/left turn accidents, which often lead to serious injuries and/or fatalities. Obviously, they don't work well on freeways or high volume roads, but work very well at less busy intersections.

I don't think you adequately stating how significant safety changes have been made. Just the fact that airbags weren't required until the 80s is a huge thing. Smash a car made in the 80s into a car made last year and the difference in the cabin damage is genuinely astounding. I was in an accident where I hit someone who ran a red as I was going probably 65-70. The only injury I had was a skinned knuckle from my hand sliding across the top of the dashboard. That was a 2009 if I remember right. If that were a car in the 70s, I would have been in the hospital or dead.

Tricks Tricks:
Speed limits should NEVER be set to reflect "public attitude", they should be set based on collision history, collision severity, engineering and the types of vehicles and people using the road.

So better engineered vehicles than 50 years ago should mean a higher speed limit then right?


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