[Newsbot]

Title: New gas plant allegations involve Dalton McGuinty aide
Category: Provincial Politics
Posted By: N_Fiddledog
Date: 2014-03-27 11:20:23
Canadian

[OnTheIce]

Time for an election, Ontario. This government is a joke.

[Regina]

OPG is a complete joke in Ontario. McSquinty's boys raped and pillaged that power sector for years. Shutting down power generating stations but yet building and canceling others to the tune of billions.

[Jabberwalker]

Both of those stations that were cancelled were in ridiculous locations and neither should ever have made it off of the very first list of potential sites. Neither of them should have ever been more than an E-mailed suggestion. That they dug holes, signed contracts paid a shitpile on engineers, consultants of every type, committed to feckin' mega-millions all the while ignoring the public around them, who said from the very beginning, "Are you people mad?"

If that is the extent of OPG's planning skills, you'd better bring your own lunch to the company picnic.

[Xort]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Both of those stations that were cancelled were in ridiculous locations and neither should ever have made it off of the very first list of potential sites.

What was wrong with the locations?

Too far from their markets needing too many new transmission lines?
Not near to a major natural gas pipeline?

Or by wrong location do you just mean too close to rich people?

[Jabberwalker]

Xort Xort:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Both of those stations that were cancelled were in ridiculous locations and neither should ever have made it off of the very first list of potential sites.

What was wrong with the locations?

Too far from their markets needing too many new transmission lines?
Not near to a major natural gas pipeline?

Or by wrong location do you just mean too close to rich people?

Well, I live a few kilometers from one of them (a few more from the other) and it is right in the middle of an old, established neighbourhood, 70-80 years old full of multimillion dollar houses. If that is all that is left, ... go ahead and build but no more that 5 kilometres to the North (of one of the nicest, most expensive neighbourhoods in the country)is derelict farmland. How stupid can one get?

If you live in Calgary: They were going to build it in the middle of Mount Royal

If you live in Vancouver: They were going to build t in the middle of West Van.

If you live in Ottawa: They were going to build it in the middle of New Edinburgh.

Etc.

If you think that it's "smart' or "okay" to build in old residential neighbourhoods because rich people live there ... you should obviously be working for OPG because they don't give a flying fuck what's around their power plants, either. People are paid a lot of money to make intelligent decisions. This was not an intelligent decision by anyone's measure(unless you're NDP and you want to make the rich PAYY!!!)

Try building them where nobody lives .... not a long way from where nobody lives but try an area that hasn't had great, big houses in it since WWII.

[Xort]

I guess the power plant would clash with what looks like a cement plant to the north east, the rail yard, some sort of trans-shipping building and the other general industrial buildings.



Nice to see that NIMBY is still alive and well.

[Jabberwalker]

Nice to see that NIMBY is still alive and well.


Do you know what you are looking at, Einstein?

The "NIMBY" part really pisses me off. You truly have no clue about what you are commenting on or the situation on the ground, there. It is obvious when you spout knee-jerk crap like "NIMBY" out your ass.

I will give you a guided tour, if you wish. That big area with the white buildings is the Ford assembly plant. It is state of the art. It does not belch ANY smoke, make ANY noise, make ANY smells, nor pollute at all. It has been there since 1950, quietly assembling cars (They don't smelt the iron, there.) THAT is the crux of it, actually, someone cut a crooked deal with Ford to featherbed the car maker with exorbitant rental income from their property. It was a "big daddy" money deal. No wonder they scrubbed the hard drives. This was a corrupt buddy-buddy transaction between OPG and Ford that ignored everyone else around them.

That green neighbourhood taking up ALL of your photo is composed of houses ranging from shotgun shacks at $800,000 to $5-6 million dollar properties ($10-12 Million dollar properties are just two blocks straight South of this image, along the shore of Lake Ontario.) There are NO cheap houses in your image ... not one. Take a Google walk through. Look at the prices of Oakville real-estate. If you still want to "stick it to the rich NIMBYs", all I can say is: I hope that someday, you will be able to afford a house of your own, too and will finally be able to move out of the '84 Caravan.

This was the ultimate in corporate arrogance. Nobody asked. They just did ... imposed ... sent huge invoices for their incompetence.

p.s. There is no cement plant within 5 miles of this photograph. You are confusing different tribes of those nasty, rich-bitch NIMBYs from other power plant proposals.

[Xort]

Not in my backyard.

Anyway, just from looking at the map, what's the thing in red if it's not a cement plant?





Anyway, the value of the homes, has nothing to do with the suitability of the area for development.

It's a natural gas plant, not a 1940s coal fired plant or an iron smelter. They don't release smells, they don't release soot or harmful/toxic emissions. As for noise they are very quite, the rail yard would be far louder, to say nothing of the highway beside the location.

As for the wealth issue, if those homes were lower income, that gas plant would have been built because they don't have the means to try and force the government to change. That's the nature of by comment about the homes of the rich.

[Jabberwalker]

Xort Xort:

Not in my backyard.

Anyway, just from looking at the map, what's the thing in red if it's not a cement plant?





Anyway, the value of the homes, has nothing to do with the suitability of the area for development.

It's a natural gas plant, not a 1940s coal fired plant or an iron smelter. They don't release smells, they don't release soot or harmful/toxic emissions. As for noise they are very quite, the rail yard would be far louder, to say nothing of the highway beside the location.

As for the wealth issue, if those homes were lower income, that gas plant would have been built because they don't have the means to try and force the government to change. That's the nature of by comment about the homes of the rich.

The people who live here ... and thousand do, were not consulted at all. It was a pronouncement from on high and it was totally corrupt process from beginning to end. Build it on your back yard ... and how dare you call all those people "NYMBYs when you know absolutely nothing about the site or it's surroundings. You're as arrogant as the swaggering pricks at OPG who dropped this in the middle of Oakville in the first place.

p.s. You've just shifted the map over about five miles to the other site on the Oakville Mississauga border. That is also bounded by really nice residential neighbourhoods. This one has a different history. This parcel of land was obtained by Hydro in 19562. Y=The plan, at the tie was to build small nuclear reactors about ten miles apart all along the shores of Lake Ontario. hey eventually opted to bud mega-reactor complexes in a few locations, instead of a lot of little ones. The land was bought long before people lived there and it sat derelict for decades. When a private gas plant operator came along, they dusted off the half century old plan and decided that "it was a go" even though nobody now living there was consulted at all. It's not the feckin. Soviet Union. You have to ask, here.

[Xort]

The distance is about 2 miles between the power plant location and what looks like a cement plant. Take a look at a map. Also cement plants (if that is what it is) have huge emissions when measured against a modern natural gas fired power plant.
~
The claim that their was no community consultation is very hard to believe given the regulatory requirements and Trans Canada's statements about the ongoing consultations it was having.

Do you have any proof that this project never had any public consultations? Maybe a court filing, or something?

Again this is a classic case of NIMBY. They don't want the power plant because it's too close to where they live. Given your statement that it should be moved to a new location, is the other half of NIMBY, which is that it's an ok project but that it just can't be built where I live.

If those were all low income homes do you think the plant would have been built?

[Jabberwalker]

Xort Xort:

The distance is about 2 miles between the power plant location and what looks like a cement plant. Take a look at a map. Also cement plants (if that is what it is) have huge emissions when measured against a modern natural gas fired power plant.
~
The claim that their was no community consultation is very hard to believe given the regulatory requirements and Trans Canada's statements about the ongoing consultations it was having.

Do you have any proof that this project never had any public consultations? Maybe a court filing, or something?

Again this is a classic case of NIMBY. They don't want the power plant because it's too close to where they live. Given your statement that it should be moved to a new location, is the other half of NIMBY, which is that it's an ok project but that it just can't be built where I live.

If those were all low income homes do you think the plant would have been built?

Where do you live, anyway?

Let's build an abattoir right there! We need more abattoirs! Why not? Too good for an abattoir?

As I said, you are quite clueless about the history, geography of all of this.

Classic ignoramus.

I will say that if there was any consolation on this project, at all, it was not done at the neighbourhood level. It was not done at the municipality level, either. It was the Town of Oakville that fought and successfully prevented this from being built right in the middle (and the other one, right on the edge of) their jurisdiction. Don't you think that the city that is having a monstrosity like this plopped into the middle of it should be consulted? Not as high enough level for you? The city and it's government are just another bunch of those nasty old NIMBYs?

How about, they are our democratically elected government. The entity that wanted to build both plants is a private, foreign (American) corporation. The licencing was being done by bureaucrats at an ex-crown corporation. The whole deal was being consummated buy Ford Motors who stood to gain oodles of boodle in the deal. There was no consultation with any government below McGinty's.

About McGinty's government. This has already resulted in a cabinet minister being found guilty of contempt of parliament (something that happened about once a century) that lead to his leaving Dodge in a big hurry. It has resulted in the retirement of a very guilty premier who was part of the dirty deal. The deal, in fact, was so dirty that his chief of staff seems to have been caught having hard drives all over the place scrubbed of their information about these two power plants. Do you honestly think that "NYMBYs" did all of that? Those NYBMYs are the residents and tax payers that smelled a rat on two seriously dirty deals. You mat be a Liberal because no one else in Ontario has the chutzpah to defend this little pile of corruption and blame it on the ratepayers. You should visit here. Do your homework before you mouth off any more about it.

[Xort]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Where do you live, anyway?

Not sure that it matters but in Edmonton across the river from the refineries.

$1:

Let's build an abattoir right there! We need more abattoirs! Why not? Too good for an abattoir?

How about a natural gas power plant? Wouldn't that be the more applicable suggestion?

Also natural gas plants don't make any smells and are quiet.

$1:

As I said, you are quite clueless about the history, geography of all of this.

The history is that people built their homes around industrial zoned areas? That the area is surrounded by industrial business and a rail yard?

$1:

I will say that if there was any consolation on this project, at all, it was not done at the neighbourhood level. It was not done at the municipality level, either.

How sure are you of this?

$1:

It was the Town of Oakville that fought and successfully prevented this from being built right in the middle (and the other one, right on the edge of) their jurisdiction. Don't you think that the city that is having a monstrosity like this plopped into the middle of it should be consulted? Not as high enough level for you? The city and it's government are just another bunch of those nasty old NIMBYs?

Monstrosity is a emotional word of little value.
I think the city was consulted, and that the Mayor then went on to talk to the provincial government. Or I should say that's what I have read happened.

$1:

How about, they are our democratically elected government. The entity that wanted to build both plants is a private, foreign (American) corporation. The licencing was being done by bureaucrats at an ex-crown corporation. The whole deal was being consummated buy Ford Motors who stood to gain oodles of boodle in the deal. There was no consultation with any government below McGinty's.

Lets say that your unsupported statement is true, would it matter? All that would happen is bunch of people would go to a meeting and say 'NIMBY'. If the project met the regulatory requirements in place at the time, and had the approval of the land owner what's the problem? Again these people live at the nearest point about 500m away from a highway, beside a large rail yard, and within 700m of what looks like a cement plant.

Natural gas plants don't make dangerous pollution, smell bad, are not loud, don't require large amounts of traffic and do not negatively impact the local environment.

Their only real downside is that they cost so much to run, cheap to build expensive to fuel.

If this was a coal fired plant or an oil fired plant this would be different.

$1:

About McGinty's government. This has already resulted in a cabinet minister being found guilty of contempt of parliament (something that happened about once a century) that lead to his leaving Dodge in a big hurry. It has resulted in the retirement of a very guilty premier who was part of the dirty deal. The deal, in fact, was so dirty that his chief of staff seems to have been caught having hard drives all over the place scrubbed of their information about these two power plants. Do you honestly think that "NYMBYs" did all of that? Those NYBMYs are the residents and tax payers that smelled a rat on two seriously dirty deals. You mat be a Liberal because no one else in Ontario has the chutzpah to defend this little pile of corruption and blame it on the ratepayers. You should visit here. Do your homework before you mouth off any more about it.

The issue isn't the building of the plant(s), it's the huge costs of stopping them. At least that is what I'm reading and have been reading for years now. The NIMBY objectors didn't have any idea about smelling a rat, they just saw a development and like almost every other home owner threw a fit over it.

[Jabberwalker]

The "NIMBYs" had a private deal shoved down their throats. The huge costs of ending the projects were due to the utter incompetence of arrogant commissars who tried to shove these projects down the public's throats. Before this is finished, people will go to jail for this, mark my word and it won't be any of those miserable "NIMBYs' who were being forced to live with someone else's dirty deal.

The NIMBY objectors didn't have any idea about smelling a rat, they just saw a development and like almost every other home owner threw a fit over it.


It wasn't a "development like any other". It was two power plants in one of the nicest, most established neighbourhoods in the entire country. It started out pretty quietly because it was strictly a private enterprise deal, at first. As I recall, the original business plan had the American owner-operator generating electricity in Canada, using Canadian gas for export to the U.S. (we share a common grid here but electricity usually flows North-to-South).

You've been reading about this for years, have you? You seem to know surprisingly little about it.

Our city government stopped it. The entire town was behind them. Arrogance. This is all about arrogance and poor governance, not the nastiness of rate-payers that were being forced to take a top-down deal negotiated elsewhere.

If this process had happened in Alberta, people would be taking shots (literally) over the "big government" boogieman forcing the public to take an edict from on high (like the NEP did). Even Ontarians have the right to fight back against arbitrary authority. You might be a "NIMBY", yourself, one day given the right series of events. Got a sour gas pipeline running through your neighborhood? Was there lot of proper consultation? Did you provincial government approve of it without ever asking you?

[Jabberwalker]

Natural gas plants don't make dangerous pollution, smell bad, are not loud, don't require large amounts of traffic and do not negatively impact the local environment.


They suck up huge amounts of oxygen and generate all sorts of CO. Big turbines are noisy, too. Build them outside of residential neighbourhoods. Five, ten kilometer away gets you out of where people live. It's a no-brainer.

BTW, Ontario has had an electricity surplus for years, now. We are generally, a net exporter of electricity even without those gas fired plants, so it appears that they were unnecessary from the beginning, anyway which stokes the fire that this is all about corruption. How con=me, a billion was paid to various entities that produced nothing in the end? This stuff is worthy of Russian oligarchs. As I said , someone will go to jail yet over this.

Yeah. Blame the NIMBYs. they're just taxpayers. Who gives shit bout taxpayers?