[MacDonaill]

kenmore kenmore:

Rates of French–English bilingualism in Canada
Rates of French–English bilingualism have steadily increased since the early
1970s and nearly half of all Canadian Francophones speak English. However,
progress has been slower among Anglophones and fewer than 10% speak
French (Figure 1).
So whats the problem for the English? learning difficulties?

I think it's mostly old English stubbornness and probably a bit of bad faith. Not to mention the fact that most English Canadians are disgustingly infatuated with the US and probably think that if the Americans can be lazy and not speak any other languages, then so can they.

But what they probably don't know, and this is something that truly shows just how un-American Canadians actually are, is that the US élite has traditionally been solidly francophile. The bourgeois American ideal has always been peppered with French influences. France and the United States share a relationship that is more profound even than that of the relationship between the US and Canada. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that most Canadians haven't got through their heads.

The US-Canadian relationship means (in a moral and intellectual sense) more to Canadians than it does to Americans. Most Americans don't think about nor do they really know anything or have any respect for Canada. The reverse is of course totally opposite. (English) Canadians are constantly looking toward the States for inspiration, for validation, for recognition etc. It's pathetic. It's a drama of unrequited love and adoration. The part of me that grew up in the States, the American part, is thoroughly baffled and creeped out by this behaviour. The Canadian part of me, whose father is an English guy from working-class Montreal, the part of me that escaped those formative years in Canada that apparently foster in most English Canadians a lack of respect for their own country, is also baffled and frankly sickened by this syndrome because I feel it is cheating me out of the country Canada had promised me it was when I would spend late nights reading about Canadian history and politics, playing catch-up with the heritage of a country that was mine, whose passport I held in my hands, but whom I knew only in my imagination.

How can a country so great and with such potential expect and think so little of itself? When I first moved here, I was excited and awed by how different everything was. I was mesmerised by everything Canada had to offer, but confused by these people, these Canadians who had grown up here, who kept insisting on how similar they were to Americans when I as an American knew and could see so clearly how different they were from me and from the people I had grown up with.

Today I feel like I live yet again in another country. I feel like I live in Canada, whose history and traditions I know and understand, whose languages I speak and write in, whose government and politics I know and follow, whose culture, music and films I pay attention to, whose literature I'm well-read in etc... But I don't get the impression that many of my fellow citizens live in that same country. I know that they may live physically in the same country as me, but so many of them can't even tell me who the Prime Minister is. They live in a world dominated by American drama, and it confuses the shit out of them. They know factually that they are Canadian, but they can scarcely tell me anything about the country other than a few comments about hockey or beer. They know of little to no home-grown culture to refer to.

And even the Canadians I've met who are cultured, so many of them are tortured by their nationality. They are asking themselves why they are Canadians and tormenting themselves on answering the riddle of what that means. It's ridiculous. Why does it have to mean anything? Why does there have to be a short answer to the question 'What is a Canadian?' Have you ever heard anyone ask 'What is a Frenchman?' or 'What is a Mexican?'? I don't recall ever hearing anything like that, but just for fun I tried to answer those questions, and I can't. Invariably, all I can come up with is 'A Mexican is someone from Mexico and he probably is brown and speaks Spanish and eats a lot of Mexican food.'

Well, that's not so different from saying that a Canadian is someone who lives in Canada, can be any colour but is probably white, speaks either English or French or both with a Canadian accent, and probably likes hockey but even if he doesn't he knows a lot about it.

We know of course, that there is more to the Canadian national identity than that, but in order to be in touch with that identity, people have to understand things like history and literature. The French-English divide is a core element in this country's identity and always has been, and if we want to move beyond it, then we have to tear it down. The only way of doing that is to put your old prejudices aside and seek to understand, and that goes for both sides.

[kenmore]

Excellent post MacDonaill

[Proculation]

I don't understand the debate here. There are two official languages in Canada: english and french. That's it. There are people speaking only english and there are people speaking french. But the country is bilingual want it or not. If I go in Alberta and I go to a government office, I would like to be served in french if it's possible. Not everybody have to speak french but say there are 40 persons working there, I hope at least one person speaks french. Actually I don't care because I can speak english but not everybody does. It's not like there is only 5% french speakers. It's more than 25%.

In the United States, there's one official language: english. But I remember that since Obama was not speaking one word in spanish, it was seen as bad.

[MacDonaill]

Proculation Proculation:

I don't understand the debate here. There are two official languages in Canada: english and french. That's it. There are people speaking only english and there are people speaking french. But the country is bilingual want it or not. If I go in Alberta and I go to a government office, I would like to be served in french if it's possible. Not everybody have to speak french but say there are 40 persons working there, I hope at least one person speaks french. Actually I don't care because I can speak english but not everybody does. It's not like there is only 5% french speakers. It's more than 25%.

In the United States, there's one official language: english. But I remember that since Obama was not speaking one word in spanish, it was seen as bad.

Pardon de vous reprendre, mais il faut que j'apporte une toute petite correction à votre message, bien d'être à 100% d'accord avec lui : There is no official language of the U.S. English is, by default, the dominant and customary language of the administration, courts, education and trade and yet no language has ever been officially named the country's official language.

Certain states have designated official languages. Most of these states have chosen English only, but some have others, mostly Spanish but also French (de facto) and even Hawaiian.

[EdwardRI]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

It seems curious that someone who shows such hostility to pretty much everywhere in the country east of his own corner of it, and who seems so intent on emigrating even from there, really shouldn't give so much of a damn about its linguistic policy. And in any case, French is not an official language in BC. It's federally official, which makes sense because the federal government must serve the entire country, in which there are two major languages spoken. Nobody gives a damn if you speak French, and as long as you're planning on moving to the US (take it from somebody who's from there), German won't be of any more use there than French is in BC. You'd have been better off taking Spanish. But then again you can't expect the BC Ministry of Education to tailor its curriculum choices only to people who want to emigrate to the States.

My family hails chiefly from the United States and England. I have no real family roots here to speak of. I grew up knowing the scorn Canadian culture seemed to hold for the United States (which I prefer to Canada) and the scorn the Quebecois hold for England (classical french versus english). As a result, I've held some level of contempt for Canadian culture, especially Quebecois.

I came into this thread talking about my own personal experience with french and how utterly insignificant it is to me. For something to do, I may learn french one day, but it wouldn't be the Quebecois french we're talking about (mostly) here, but Parisian french. I have no interest in cooperation with the Quebecois. The amount of federal funding directly and indirectly being funnelled to "protect" Quebecois culture is wasteful.

[Zipperfish]

AS the poll, suggests, bilinguialism is mostly an eastern Canadian thing. Very few out here in the west speak it as a first language. I don't see it as being a part of the Candian identity either, out here in the west. The general view of Quebec in BC and Alberta is of a province sucking teh puclic teat for all its worth.

[MacDonaill]

EdwardRI EdwardRI:

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

It seems curious that someone who shows such hostility to pretty much everywhere in the country east of his own corner of it, and who seems so intent on emigrating even from there, really shouldn't give so much of a damn about its linguistic policy. And in any case, French is not an official language in BC. It's federally official, which makes sense because the federal government must serve the entire country, in which there are two major languages spoken. Nobody gives a damn if you speak French, and as long as you're planning on moving to the US (take it from somebody who's from there), German won't be of any more use there than French is in BC. You'd have been better off taking Spanish. But then again you can't expect the BC Ministry of Education to tailor its curriculum choices only to people who want to emigrate to the States.

My family hails chiefly from the United States and England. I have no real family roots here to speak of. I grew up knowing the scorn Canadian culture seemed to hold for the United States (which I prefer to Canada) and the scorn the Quebecois hold for England (classical french versus english). As a result, I've held some level of contempt for Canadian culture, especially Quebecois.

There must be some reason why you are Canadian and not American, no matter where most of your family hails from. Not to mention that Swedish and Icelandic are quite funny languages to speak in a family coming from the US and England. In any case, if you prefer the States to Canada so much, you should move there (that is, if they'll have you). One thing I can tell you is you really can't know a place unless you have lived there for a few years at least, no matter how many times you may have visited it or seen it on TV.

And for someone to whom French is so insignificant, you pretend to know an awful lot about the Québécois. But it might also interest you to know that not all French-Canadians are Québécois, not all Québécois hate England (I would say that most of them don't even think about England) and that not all Canadians (as you prove) hate the States.

I personally don't see what the big deal is with the States, or why some people think it's so larger than life. I guess that's because I'm originally from there, and to me it doesn't really seem like anything special in comparison to other Western countries. I mean, it's certainly better than living in Ethiopia or Tajikistan, but not any better than living in Canada or Australia.

[EdwardRI]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

There must be some reason why you are Canadian and not American, no matter where most of your family hails from. Not to mention that Swedish and Icelandic are quite funny languages to speak in a family coming from the US and England. In any case, if you prefer the States to Canada so much, you should move there (that is, if they'll have you). One thing I can tell you is you really can't know a place unless you have lived there for a few years at least, no matter how many times you may have visited it or seen it on TV.

And for someone to whom French is so insignificant, you pretend to know an awful lot about the Québécois. But it might also interest you to know that not all French-Canadians are Québécois, not all Québécois hate England (I would say that most of them don't even think about England) and that not all Canadians (as you prove) hate the States.

I personally don't see what the big deal is with the States, or why some people think it's so larger than life. I guess that's because I'm originally from there, and to me it doesn't really seem like anything special in comparison to other Western countries. I mean, it's certainly better than living in Ethiopia or Tajikistan, but not any better than living in Canada or Australia.

I'm Canadian because I was born here. Regarding the language comment: read carefully. I said my family chiefly hails from the US and England. One of my grandparents comes from Scandinavia and has english as a 6th language. I am looking at moving to the US.

I don't pretend to know a lot about the Quebecois (I know I don't) and I do not speak of all Quebecois or all Canadians. I speak only anecdotally.

[Bodah]

kenmore kenmore:

Bodah Bodah:

martin14 martin14:

kind of sad to see most of the posts here.

Being officially bilingual is one policy I really support.

Yeah it is, but since the rate of bilingual people hasnt changed in the past 40 years. Bilingualism is obviously not about making people bilingual anymore. That's evident.

Funny how those who can't whine and complain.. You friggen live in Québec, how is it you don't speak french?

t'inquiète pas je parle francais, gros cave. This is nothing new I've mentioned it before. When I go out I speak french when I go shopping etc, its a matter of respect I know that. When I chose to live here I knew I needed to learn the langauge.

Donc ,calme toi.

[Bodah]

kenmore kenmore:

Rates of French–English bilingualism in Canada
Rates of French–English bilingualism have steadily increased since the early
1970s and nearly half of all Canadian Francophones speak English. However,
progress has been slower among Anglophones and fewer than 10% speak
French (Figure 1).
So whats the problem for the English? learning difficulties?

Your stats are bullshit,all of them. Especially the one about half the province Quebec being bilingual. Good one, lol.

Nice move calling english people dumb btw.

Learning any language is all about immersion, daily exposure and continued use. Language course alone dont cut it.

[Saskanna]

$1:

1970s and nearly half of all Canadian Francophones speak English. However,
progress has been slower among Anglophones and fewer than 10% speak
French (Figure 1).
So whats the problem for the English? learning difficulties?

Can you not reason out why "nearly half of all Canadian Francophones speak English"? And, Anglophones not so much?

In Canada you better be able to speak English because it is the language that 75% of Canadians speak, work and live in. Then we have our neighbour to the south where English is pretty much a mandatory.

Unless you want to live strictly within Quebec, you better learn English. For Anglos the reverse just isn't true.

et, moi aussi je parle francais.

[EyeBrock]

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

EdwardRI EdwardRI:

MacDonaill MacDonaill:

It seems curious that someone who shows such hostility to pretty much everywhere in the country east of his own corner of it, and who seems so intent on emigrating even from there, really shouldn't give so much of a damn about its linguistic policy. And in any case, French is not an official language in BC. It's federally official, which makes sense because the federal government must serve the entire country, in which there are two major languages spoken. Nobody gives a damn if you speak French, and as long as you're planning on moving to the US (take it from somebody who's from there), German won't be of any more use there than French is in BC. You'd have been better off taking Spanish. But then again you can't expect the BC Ministry of Education to tailor its curriculum choices only to people who want to emigrate to the States.

My family hails chiefly from the United States and England. I have no real family roots here to speak of. I grew up knowing the scorn Canadian culture seemed to hold for the United States (which I prefer to Canada) and the scorn the Quebecois hold for England (classical french versus english). As a result, I've held some level of contempt for Canadian culture, especially Quebecois.

There must be some reason why you are Canadian and not American, no matter where most of your family hails from. Not to mention that Swedish and Icelandic are quite funny languages to speak in a family coming from the US and England. In any case, if you prefer the States to Canada so much, you should move there (that is, if they'll have you). One thing I can tell you is you really can't know a place unless you have lived there for a few years at least, no matter how many times you may have visited it or seen it on TV.

And for someone to whom French is so insignificant, you pretend to know an awful lot about the Québécois. But it might also interest you to know that not all French-Canadians are Québécois, not all Québécois hate England (I would say that most of them don't even think about England) and that not all Canadians (as you prove) hate the States.

I personally don't see what the big deal is with the States, or why some people think it's so larger than life. I guess that's because I'm originally from there, and to me it doesn't really seem like anything special in comparison to other Western countries. I mean, it's certainly better than living in Ethiopia or Tajikistan, but not any better than living in Canada or Australia.

MacDonaill,

I don’t know where you originally came from, but as an immigrant, I decided to take Canadian history courses after I moved to Ontario from 3 years in Labrador.

The whole debate on forced bilingualism is about perceived fairness or lack of it.

It’s quite obvious that the French descendants in Canada care little for Anglo culture. You can go right back to the Seven Years War and on to see examples of this. The other issue is that this ‘reluctant’ Canadian province gets treated differently than all the other provinces. It gets a larger share of provincial transfer payments per capita than any other province. It controls immigration into it’s province, elects MP’s to the Federal parliament that don’t run in ANY other province than Quebec, and it has language laws that FORBID English in that province.
Hardly equitable treatment.
Those of us who don’t assess how ‘Canadian’ we are by how nice we are to the Québécois are rightly pissed off with this special treatment and privileges that Quebec gets exclusively.

Oh on the American thing. You do know that the original non-French settlers in the 1790's brought with them their own particular brand of American culture? Thousands more Americans moved north until well into the 1860’s.
Anglo Canadians are descended from thousands of American refugees. It’s not a bad thing but Canada’s roots (outside New France) are from the 13 Colonies.

[MacDonaill]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

MacDonaill,

I don’t know where you originally came from, but as an immigrant, I decided to take Canadian history courses after I moved to Ontario from 3 years in Labrador.

The whole debate on forced bilingualism is about perceived fairness or lack of it.

It’s quite obvious that the French descendants in Canada care little for Anglo culture. You can go right back to the Seven Years War and on to see examples of this. The other issue is that this ‘reluctant’ Canadian province gets treated differently than all the other provinces. It gets a larger share of provincial transfer payments per capita than any other province. It controls immigration into it’s province, elects MP’s to the Federal parliament that don’t run in ANY other province than Quebec, and it has language laws that FORBID English in that province.
Hardly equitable treatment.
Those of us who don’t assess how ‘Canadian’ we are by how nice we are to the Québécois are rightly pissed off with this special treatment and privileges that Quebec gets exclusively.

Quebec has no exclusive privileges. Any province could choose to exercise the same level of immigration control, for example, as Quebec does. Any province could theoretically have a party only running candidates in that province (many actually do) and if the citizens of those province don't wish to elect them to office, that's their business. If some Quebeckers choose to vote Bloc, and the Bloc wins seats as a result, then that's their right to do so, but it is a right that everyone in every province has. If I were a Newfoundlander, I could vote for the Newfoundland and Labrador First Party, for example.

Secondly, English is not forbidden in Quebec. That's a lie. Unilingual signs in non-French languages are forbidden. That's hardly the same thing, and many countries have similar laws. I lived in Quebec for years, in one of the most French parts, and if I had wanted to I could have lived my entire life there without speaking a word of French. I could go to the store, interact with the government, watch TV, listen to the radio, borrow books from the library and hang out with friends all exclusively in English. So don't give me any horseshit about English being forbidden. That's a crock. English is alive and well in Quebec.

$1:

Oh on the American thing. You do know that the original non-French settlers in the 1790's brought with them their own particular brand of American culture? Thousands more Americans moved north until well into the 1860’s.
Anglo Canadians are descended from thousands of American refugees. It’s not a bad thing but Canada’s roots (outside New France) are from the 13 Colonies.

I'm well aware of the Loyalist immigration to Canada and that some (but not all) of Canada's non-French roots lie south of the border, but you'll be hard-pressed to convince me or anyone that this is the reason why so many Canadians today, hundreds of years later, should be so fascinated with the US and so enveloped by US media culture that they're actually left confused and ignorant about their own history and culture. Sure there will be similarities. The core WASP culture remains present all over the Anglo world and most definitely in North America. But there are differences in national identity that must be recognised and reflected.

[kenmore]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

kenmore kenmore:

Absolutely the internal working of the federal government and each provincial government should be bilingual.... you English unilingual guys are too much.. learn the other official language then you can qualify for a government job and stop whining!

I think the fact that Quebec runs the civil service is one of the reasons it is so incredibly inept. Firstt of all, as stated, you're picking all your senior managers from a very limited pool, so an ineffective executive is not a surprising result. These managers have no inkling of Canada outside of Quebec (well, except for Ottawa!). Also they are part of a "Big Government" culture, where the solution to every problem is more government.

Well suck it up princess! I remember well when a french speaking person couldn't be promoted or even get a job in the government, even in Québec.... pay backs a bitch eh?

[MacDonaill]

First off, bureaucrats don't make the big political decisions. They are responsible for putting into practice the decisions made by elected officials. So it doesn't matter who is managing the public service, that person and those he is responsible for are the result of big government policies enacted by Parliament, not the cause of them.

Second of all, in a country with two major languages, certain parts of the public service will invariably have to be bilingual, including the management. You cannot expect to have a working environment of mutual respect when one side is always giving the orders in one language to the other side that is just forced to translate them and pass it on to the rank and file and to everyday citizens. That is descriptive of a colonial mentality, and francophone Canadians, be they from Quebec or elsewhere, are more than just the loyal subjects of an English-speaking Canadian majority. I know that's what many of you out there silently wish for, a return to the days when the uppity frogs just kept their mouths shut and did what they were told, but those days are over.

Canada has to be bilingual or it cannot exist. This is the stark reality. So make sure your kids do their French homework.