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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:12 pm
 


BeaverBill BeaverBill:
$1:
$1:
Maybe quick fix society has gone too far. Take a pill for your head ache, suck the flab out of you cause your too lazy to go for a walk......have an abortion cause you didn't know that fucking produced a child. Is there a pill for stupidity?


A very narrow-minded statement.


Sometimes the truth hurts.


What truth? That you are narrow-minded? Are you proud of that fact?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:14 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
..............No, the baby isn't entitled to life if the mother doesn't want to carry the pregnancy.........


Is that not unjust murder?

Please note the use of the word unjust here.

You trumpet the atrocities of Canadians not being bestowed their rights in SSM debates but are against Canadians right to live. SSM rights pale in comparison to life sorry to say.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:17 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Tman1 Tman1:
No, actually it's not sad. That being said, you care so little of the decision of the man who equally takes part of the creation of life? Ooook and on that note:

I care for the decision of the women but only if both partners come to some sort of agreement. Your bases of the womens ultimate complete choice does not go well with me but I respect your opinion.

For example. Say you want the child but your lady friend doesn't.....so it's her choice......thats a good one. How about this: His sperm, his choice.


When its her body yes. What will we do, force her to have it? At gun point. Women commit suicide because they have been forced to carry an unwanted child.

How about rape? How about when the pregnancy threatens a womens life? Some hold the opinion that the pregancy is their gods will and it must continue even if it kills the mother.

I wouldn't want another human being with that kind of power over my body. Would you?

$1:
When its her body yes. What will we do, force her to have it? At gun point. Women commit suicide because they have been forced to carry an unwanted child.

That does not make any sense. What you are saying is that the male has done his duty but the female of the species is what determines what lives and dies? The male is some piece of meat? Come on, I thought we evovled from insects and the other primitive mating procedures of dog eats dog. Nobody is forcing the women to have the child but merely saying the male has an equal voice on the matter. You can believe what you want, but for me, I'll find a partner who respects equality and good judgment.

Well, I'm not one of those religious freaks and probably most others who want to have children. Rape? What about it? Are women not allowed to carry out the birth because some asshole raped her? Is it the fetus' growing inside her fault? Does it deserve to die? I hope not.

Nobody is saying anything of the sort of any power over ones body. I think the people on here are saying that the male has an equal say about the birth, thats it!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:23 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Make whatever offer you want to the women but in the end irs still only her that can truly make the decision.

Only if the male has no interest in the child, then I would be inclined to agree with you. It's wrong but you're right, it is her choice.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:23 pm
 


Although you may call them freaks they believe what they believe and although we may not think they are right we have to respect them. That said I DO NOT think we should force women who were raped or whose life was in danger to carry the baby. Although a vocal minority of christian may be fundementalists, like you say, please do not generalize. My view point for matters of law comes from common sense not from my religion btw.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:23 pm
 


ThePolitician ThePolitician:
DerbyX DerbyX:
..............No, the baby isn't entitled to life if the mother doesn't want to carry the pregnancy.........


Is that not unjust murder?

Please note the use of the word unjust here.

You trumpet the atrocities of Canadians not being bestowed their rights in SSM debates but are against Canadians right to live. SSM rights pale in comparison to life sorry to say.


Wrong. I trumpet the rights of the individual and in this case I hold that the living breathing sentience human female whos body it is deserves inalienable rights to make choices as she sees fit.

What will you do. make women carry babies to term by force?

Why stop there. Why not force people to donate blood. Why not force them to donate sperm and eggs so that infertile people can have children. Why not force people to donate oragns they can spare, such as liver sections, a kidney, or a lung?

Sound sick eh? All have the grandiose plane of savinga life at the paltry expense of trampling someones rights. :roll:

I notice you are brave when its not your body thats concerned. Would you give up a kidney if a women promised not to abort her baby?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:26 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
BeaverBill BeaverBill:
Sorry... I'm not much of a butcher and all that I've seen i don't believe in abortion. As I've mentioned before, I'm the sperm donor but if need be I'd take my unwanted child on my own...... or don't I have a say in your world?


$1:
Butcher? You had better not be talking about the women who choose to obtain one or the people who perform them!


truth hurts.

$1:
A say? Your say is in what you say to the women you impregnated. Tell her you'll marry her. Tell her you'll be right by her side during the entire pregancy and the next 70 years of the childs life. Say what you want to convince her to have it but recognize that in the end it is her decision.

What do you advocate if the women is so dead set against it that she will endanger her own life in an effort to make her body abort it? Force feed her? Keep her confined under guard?

If I were a women, no man would tell me what I could and could not do with my body for any reason. I believe that freedom is absolutely theirs by right


What are the psycological implications of foetuscide? Something you haven't addressed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:28 pm
 


ACtually I couldn't because of one of my kidneys does not function well enough by itself however if she needed blood or something that I could give, yes I would. That said in your opinion when does the baby become an individual. It may not be breathing but it is living(dependant totally on the mother of course) and its dna is distinct from it's mother's.. what criteria to be an individual does it not meet?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:35 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Would you give up a kidney if a women promised not to abort her baby?


If I made a conscious act that directly effected the health of that kidney and therefore that person, I would absolutley assume my responsibilities.

I'd even do it without having to have had a direct effect, it's called compassion for life.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:35 pm
 


$1:
That does not make any sense. What you are saying is that the male has done his duty but the female of the species is what determines what lives and dies? The male is some piece of meat?


Essential the male is often no more then a sperm donor. What I say makes perfect because the reality is that its her body. What will you do if she refuses to eat, force her?

$1:
Come on, I thought we evovled from insects and the other primitive mating procedures of dog eats dog. Nobody is forcing the women to have the child but merely saying the male has an equal voice on the matter. You can believe what you want, but for me, I'll find a partner who respects equality and good judgment.


Ahh, but you are saying you will deliberatly choose a women who respects your views on abortion. Fine, but we are talking about every women and their right to choose. If you seek to have intercourse only with women who disagree with abortion then thats your right. Your right ends when it conflicts with the person whos body it is. Just as you claim total dominion over your own body so do women.

$1:
Well, I'm not one of those religious freaks and probably most others who want to have children. Rape? What about it? Are women not allowed to carry out the birth because some asshole raped her? Is it the fetus' growing inside her fault? Does it deserve to die? I hope not.


Are they allowed? Of course. Thats the point isn't it. It isn't the babies fault but neither should the women be forced through an experience beyond rational comprehension against her will. Allowed, yes. Forced, no.

$1:
Nobody is saying anything of the sort of any power over ones body. I think the people on here are saying that the male has an equal say about the birth, thats it!


Virtually all anti-abortionist don't care what the male thinks because they are focussed entirely on the fetus and degrading the womes rights.

Take this situation: The man says have it nut the wome says no. Whos rights prevail? Now factor in the undeniable fact that its her body and every women can simply force her body to abort it any way but at great personal risk.

Again we are back to "will we force her to have it at gun-point?"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:47 pm
 


hamiltonguyo hamiltonguyo:
ACtually I couldn't because of one of my kidneys does not function well enough by itself however if she needed blood or something that I could give, yes I would. That said in your opinion when does the baby become an individual. It may not be breathing but it is living(dependant totally on the mother of course) and its dna is distinct from it's mother's.. what criteria to be an individual does it not meet?


The point isn't "would you give it willingly" but "should we force people against their will?" See the difference?

The baby is an independant organism when it can exist outside the womens womb (through natural and/or assited means). I say this even though I place a time limit on abortion based on my knowledge of fetal development.

$1:
Quote:
Butcher? You had better not be talking about the women who choose to obtain one or the people who perform them!


truth hurts.


Your version of the truth is painless to me.

$1:
What are the psycological implications of foetuscide? Something you haven't addressed.


On the contrary I have researched them before. This is certainly not the first abortion discussion I have been in on this forum let alone in lefe.

The psychological impact is something discussed and quite frankly it is often less then that of a women who gives up a child for adoption.

$1:
If I made a conscious act that directly effected the health of that kidney and therefore that person, I would absolutley assume my responsibilities.


Bollocks. Are you saying you would accept responsibility for damage to your kidney that occurred when it was in your body but subsequently affected another human when they forced you to give it to that person? Give me a break.

$1:
I'd even do it without having to have had a direct effect, it's called compassion for life.


Apparenlty your compassion doesn't extend to pregnant women.

BTW, you can volunteer to donate a kidney anytime. They will test you to find a suitable recipient and go from there.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:58 pm
 


Ok DerbyX I won't argue anymore its going around in circles we aknowledge the same facts but interperate them differently


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:01 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
$1:
If I made a conscious act that directly effected the health of that kidney and therefore that person, I would absolutley assume my responsibilities.


Bollocks. Are you saying you would accept responsibility for damage to your kidney that occurred when it was in your body but subsequently affected another human when they forced you to give it to that person? Give me a break.


I guess what I'm saying is that I'd never knowingly harm another human, directly or indirectly; I guess we differ on that item; you would.
DerbyX DerbyX:
ThePolitician ThePolitician:
I'd even do it without having to have had a direct effect, it's called compassion for life.


DerbyX DerbyX:
Apparenlty your compassion doesn't extend to pregnant women.


Are you a father? Are you familiar with pregnancies first hand? Have you been involved in the birthing experience? Are you so closed off that you don't see that by allowing abortion as birth control you are endorsing the murdering of our children and not applying any penalties to those who engage in sexual acts without knowing the possible consequences?


DerbyX DerbyX:
BTW, you can volunteer to donate a kidney anytime. They will test you to find a suitable recipient and go from there.


I am an organ donor and my blood records are on file. Not that it matters as offering an organ is a lot different than killing someone you were personally reponsible in creating.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:15 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
$1:
That does not make any sense. What you are saying is that the male has done his duty but the female of the species is what determines what lives and dies? The male is some piece of meat?


Essential the male is often no more then a sperm donor. What I say makes perfect because the reality is that its her body. What will you do if she refuses to eat, force her?

$1:
Come on, I thought we evovled from insects and the other primitive mating procedures of dog eats dog. Nobody is forcing the women to have the child but merely saying the male has an equal voice on the matter. You can believe what you want, but for me, I'll find a partner who respects equality and good judgment.


Ahh, but you are saying you will deliberatly choose a women who respects your views on abortion. Fine, but we are talking about every women and their right to choose. If you seek to have intercourse only with women who disagree with abortion then thats your right. Your right ends when it conflicts with the person whos body it is. Just as you claim total dominion over your own body so do women.

$1:
Well, I'm not one of those religious freaks and probably most others who want to have children. Rape? What about it? Are women not allowed to carry out the birth because some asshole raped her? Is it the fetus' growing inside her fault? Does it deserve to die? I hope not.


Are they allowed? Of course. Thats the point isn't it. It isn't the babies fault but neither should the women be forced through an experience beyond rational comprehension against her will. Allowed, yes. Forced, no.

$1:
Nobody is saying anything of the sort of any power over ones body. I think the people on here are saying that the male has an equal say about the birth, thats it!


Virtually all anti-abortionist don't care what the male thinks because they are focussed entirely on the fetus and degrading the womes rights.

Take this situation: The man says have it nut the wome says no. Whos rights prevail? Now factor in the undeniable fact that its her body and every women can simply force her body to abort it any way but at great personal risk.

Again we are back to "will we force her to have it at gun-point?"

$1:
Essential the male is often no more then a sperm donor. What I say makes perfect because the reality is that its her body. What will you do if she refuses to eat, force her?

That's a crude way of saying procreation. The male is essentially a tool while the women make the decisions. Sorry, society will refute that. Without the other, neither is existant. Both depend on each other, hence an equal say on the growth of a Homo Sapien being. If you want to put this in crude terms, the male is only the donor, the female is only a vessel. Back to square one.
$1:
Ahh, but you are saying you will deliberatly choose a women who respects your views on abortion. Fine, but we are talking about every women and their right to choose.

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be with someone who wants to kill their babies now would I and I'm sure a majority of people on this planet wouldn't either. There are so many circumstances of the womens right to choose but which context is used is the key. So many variables and dilemmas. Somehow, I don't think a male who doesn't want children who is having intercourse with a female who is pregnant who wants to have an abortion is going to care and in this case you are right. You mentioned rape? Fine, it's the womens choice, well hell, of course it is since the male is sure as hell not going to be present. You got me there.
$1:
Are they allowed? Of course. Thats the point isn't it. It isn't the babies fault but neither should the women be forced through an experience beyond rational comprehension against her will. Allowed, yes. Forced, no.

Like I said, instead of having an abortion, it's simpler to have the child and give it up for adoption. You mentioned medical reasons, fine thats valid. Maybe I should make myself clear, I am not "forcing" a women to have the birth, but saying the male (in normal circumstances) has as equal right as the women. Of course rape doesn't define 'normal' circumstances.
$1:
Virtually all anti-abortionist don't care what the male thinks because they are focussed entirely on the fetus and degrading the womes rights.

Uhh pardon me? I thought this whole time I was advocating of WHAT the male thinks. Was that not what I am arguing for? Degrading womens rights? Somehow I don't think it's the whole case of degrading womens rights and in none of my posts did I mention any of the sort. Of course, there is such a thing as over-exemplifying rights accorded to. You seem focused on womens rights, what about mens rights or are there not any?
$1:
Take this situation: The man says have it nut the wome says no. Whos rights prevail? Now factor in the undeniable fact that its her body and every women can simply force her body to abort it any way but at great personal risk.

Thats too vague and not even a situation. Of course, according to you, the womens rights prevail for circumstances unknown. Why would the women say no? You never said the reason why. Medical reasons? Sure, fine, I suppose the male doesn't have much say in that but simply saying no is not a reason. I can't factor in the deniable fact that it is her body because the THING growing inside her body is a part of the male therefore he has an equal right.
$1:
Again we are back to "will we force her to have it at gun-point?"

Didn't know that was a point to begin with. Nobody mentioned forcing a women to have a baby at gun-point. Why would a person be carrying a gun inside a hospital? :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:23 pm
 


$1:
I guess what I'm saying is that I'd never knowingly harm another human, directly or indirectly; I guess we differ on that item; you would.


Then you wouldn't harm/kill someone even if prevented them from gunning down a busload of school children. Interesting philosophy.

"No but wait....." Your statement can be interpreted just that way. I have a great sanctity of life yet support the death penalty. I simply support the rights of women and apparently you don't.

$1:
Are you a father?


My buisness only.

$1:
Are you familiar with pregnancies first hand? Have you been involved in the birthing experience?


I work in the medical profession. I have dealt with pregnant suicicidal runaways in the secure psych wards, I have examined POC (look it up) specimens to determine if the procedure was successful, and I have assisted in 1 emergency birth. Does that count?

$1:
Are you so closed off that you don't see that by allowing abortion as birth control you are endorsing the murdering of our children and not applying any penalties to those who engage in sexual acts without knowing the possible consequences?


Your assesment that abortion is being used as a form of birth control is ignoeant and wrong.

Children are not a "punishment" for sex.

$1:
I am an organ donor and my blood records are on file. Not that it matters as offering an organ is a lot different than killing someone you were personally reponsible in creating.


Depends on your point of view. Thousands die for lack of suitable organs. Our society is killing them because we are so callous as to not freely offer non-essential organs in a timely basis.

It all depends on where the rights lie. I choose the person who's body it is.


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