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Posts: 353
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:15 pm
Should religion be influenced by the State....or to put it another way (which is kinda disturbing), should the State be influenced by religion?
High Court Hears Debate Over Commandments
What happens if non-christians decide they want their version of the ten commandments publicly displayed. I wonder if it would even be considered...
Isn't this a form of religious discrimation? I think it's opening a can of worms as it inherently promotes christianity as the guiding religion for the State and ignores the fact that even though our founding fathers were christian, America has grown more diverse (in religion, race, whatever...) than it was then.
No offense to those who choose christianity as their moral compass (I myself was raised in a christian family but got more skeptical of the effects personal opinions and experiences could have on a minister's intepretation of the bible). Anyway, it was a personal choice to believe or not. Shouldn't the choice of what religion one chooses to guide one and one's kids be a personal one?
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Posts: 19904
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:24 pm
Oh, that there were more people in the US government like you dknychic.
You raise an excellent point: why only the Ten Commandments? How about the five pillars of Islam or Bhuddism's eight-fold path?
That's why there is a seperation of church and state (or hwy it's suppoesed to anyway). Because of the exclusionary nature of religion and becuse of religion's potential to negatively influence the state.
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Posts: 353
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:58 pm
xerxes xerxes: That's why there is a seperation of church and state (or hwy it's suppoesed to anyway). Because of the exclusionary nature of religion and becuse of religion's potential to negatively influence the state. Tell that to the Bush administration... Excerpt from article: $1: The Bush administration, which sided with a California school district last year to keep "God" in the Pledge, is now joining Texas and Kentucky officials to back the Ten Commandments displays...
...Ten Commandments displays are supported by a majority of Americans, according to an AP-Ipsos poll. The poll taken in late February found that 76 percent support it and 23 percent oppose it.
I'm surprised more people are not up in arms about this though.
It's like this crazed wave of not thinking about actions and consequences has slowly taken over 
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Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:38 pm
Godz said:
$1: Like constitution says "Freedom of religion ", not freedom of religion.
Sometimes they get caught up in their own double-speak. 
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Posts: 353
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:14 pm
Godz46 Godz46: dknychic: What's wrong about politicians who display religious symbols in public property? "Amendments to the Constitution CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PROPOSED BY CONGRESS, AND RATIFIED BY THE LEGISLATURES OF THE SEVERAL STATES, PURSUANT TO THE FIFTH ARTICLE OF THE ORIGINAL CONSTITUTION (See Note 12) Article [I.] (See Note 13) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" There's nothing wrong with politicians professing a certain faith and it's certainly not against the law to express your personal opinion on religion, but by letting the State officially taking a stance for one particular religion, we're treading on dangerous ground. It's not an overt exclusion, but by integrating State and one particular religion and letting that religion influence our decisions, the bias is automatically created against the other religions. Godz46 Godz46: Is it oppressing people of other religious minorities? No. Do those displays threaten their right to practise their own religion? No. Not yet, but it's a step in that direction. How exactly did anti-semitism begin in Germany...It started with one man's bias against Jews and nobody checked him until it got out of hand. Lack of separation between State and religion. Again, there is nothing wrong with politicians having a preference for a certain religion on a personal level, but it should stop there. Religion has no place in government, if it did, then America would become a theocratic society (scary for non-christians). Godz46 Godz46: Do US politicians have a right to pay tribute to America's religious and legal history? Yes. It should be noted that religious displays on Public properties goes as far back as the American revolution. Many immigrants came since then...none found it offensive nor oppressive. Its only nowadays that the ACLU has begun to be militant about it.
Only now, has it started being discussed in the Supreme Court and we have laws passing that requires kids in school to recite christian prayers and sing christian songs. What about those kids who do not believe in Jesus or God? Are we infringing on their right to pay tribute to their religion in schools? If we start reciting christian prayers in schools, then why not islamic prayers and so on? Yes Our founding principles are based on christianity because those who founded America were christian. But the America of then is different from the America of now. We can equally say that our founding fathers believed the black's place was in the field and the woman's place was at home, but over time, Americans realized (slowly but definitely) that just because the founding fathers thought it was right, did not mean it was (they were humans too remember). Eventually, we made amendments to the constitution to reflect a fair and balanced America.
It's a tricky subject because the whole premise of christianity (or any religion for that matter) is that it is good and thus the christians in office who support this kind of integration see it as a good thing. But the danger as xerxes pointed out is in the exclusionary nature of religion. Christianity for example says that anyone who isn't saved goes to hell....In other words, you're either christian (good) or going to hell (bad). If someone believes that on a personal level, then fine, whatever... but when the State adopts this and lets this be an influence, it's a dangerous game...
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AmericanCentury2
Newbie
Posts: 14
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:33 pm
Why the hate of Christians
I know alot of you think this is a right wing white thing in America
African Americans are very religious and make up most of the Christian Community in America
White also..............America is a Christian Leaning Country!
That's just the truth............Black,White Or Hispanic..........We dont have an Athiest European or Canadian view on life!
We believe in our lord always!!!! God has a destiny for our country to be great!
I am not a White Man from The South
I am a Black Man from the North
Alot of you need to recognize that America is a Christian Country!!!!!!
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Posts: 353
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:45 pm
AmericanCentury2 AmericanCentury2: Why the hate of Christians
I know alot of you think this is a right wing white thing in America
African Americans are very religious and make up most of the Christian Community in America
White also..............America is a Christian Leaning Country!
That's just the truth............Black,White Or Hispanic..........We dont have an Athiest European or Canadian view on life!
We believe in our lord always!!!! God has a destiny for our country to be great!
I am not a White Man from The South
I am a Black Man from the North
Alot of you need to recognize that America is a Christian Country!!!!!!
Relax man! Maybe you should read the thread before responding. Nobody here hates christians, I just believe religion is a personal choice, and this is simply a dicussion on whether personal preference has any place in government. You can express your opinion without getting all religious extremist about it!....This just proves my point. Imagine someone that radical ruling our country  ...and yeah I'm American!
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Posts: 35263
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:52 pm
AmericanCentury2 AmericanCentury2: Why the hate of Christians
I know alot of you think this is a right wing white thing in America
African Americans are very religious and make up most of the Christian Community in America
White also..............America is a Christian Leaning Country!
That's just the truth............Black,White Or Hispanic..........We dont have an Athiest European or Canadian view on life!
We believe in our lord always!!!! God has a destiny for our country to be great!
I am not a White Man from The South
I am a Black Man from the North
Alot of you need to recognize that America is a Christian Country!!!!!! That's not what Jefferson, Madison, Washington, John Adams, Franklin, and Paine meant at all$1: The most certain test by which we judge whether a country is really free is the amount of security enjoyed by minorities. (John E. E. Dalberg, Lord Acton, 1834-1902, British historian, The History of Freedom and Other Essays, 1907. From Henry O. Dormann, compiler, The Speaker's Book of Quotations, New York: Ballantine Books, 1987, p. 43.)
Once you attempt legislation upon religious grounds, you open the way for every kind of intolerance and religious persecution. (William Butler Yeats, 1865-1939, Irish poet, dramatist, and statesman; remarks on the adoption of the Irish Constitution of 1937, according to Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 107.)
Intellectual freedom is essential to human society. Freedom of thought is the only guarantee against an infection of people by mass myths, which, in the hands of treacherous hypocrites and demagogues, can be transformed into bloody dictatorships. (Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov, 1921- , Russian nuclear scientist. From Henry O. Dormann, compiler, The Speaker's Book of Quotations, New York: Ballantine Books, 1987, p. 44.)
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AdamNF
Forum Elite
Posts: 1134
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:20 pm
$1: dknychic: What's wrong about politicians who display religious symbols in public property?
Take a look around. The most religious countries are always the more oppressive. The Christian right is trying to force there backward arcane values and the whole continent.
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Posts: 8157
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:48 pm
Seperation of Church and state is a good idea. Feel free to vote according to your beliefs on all the social issues. But taxpayers money should not be affiliated with a church, temple, etc. Faith based Charities funded by the taxpayers, for instance, is probably not the best way to go.
Of course, you go too far the other way and you start to sound as rediculous as the 'politically correct' nutjobs.
Like Robin Williams said, you'll end up with lyrics like:
"Someone bless America..."
or
"One nation, obove Mexico and under Canada" 
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Posts: 19904
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:10 pm
I think the most ironic thing about the Christian right and their "literal" interpretation of the Bible is all the stuff they neglect to read. Such irrelevant stuff like "Love one another", love your enemies", "give all your money to the poor", and so on. The problem is that such people are convinced that their version of Christianity is the right one and ever increasing numbers of them are getting elected all over the US.
Godz wrote:
$1: Becuase the American rule of law and the Constitution was note written on the principles of Islam or Buddhism. It was however, written on the principles of Christianity.
That's exactly my point. That was 1776. It's now 2005 and there are millions upon millions of people with other faiths in the US and having the Ten Commandments only is a dig at their faith saying it's not recongnized by the society at large.
Godz, just because the founders of Canada and the Us were religions men, it doesn't mean that they envisioned countries where there was an established religion. You only have to look at England's history to see what happens when there is a state religion. That's why the Puritans fled to America- to get away from religious persecution.
One last thing: i don't remeber saying anything about doing away with religion. I said simply that religion has a tendency to negatively influence the state. History is on my side on this one I can assure you.
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Posts: 35263
Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:20 pm
xerxes xerxes: I think the most ironic thing about the Christian right and their "literal" interpretation of the Bible is all the stuff they neglect to read. Such irrelevant stuff like "Love one another", love your enemies", "give all your money to the poor", and so on. The problem is that such people are convinced that their version of Christianity is the right one and ever increasing numbers of them are getting elected all over the US.
What Would Jesus Do?
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