[Gunnair]

Jonny_C Jonny_C:

"We're very aware that $477 for a family is a substantial amount of money, but we believe it's more than offset by the benefits," Metrolinx chairman Robert Prichard said.

Going back to the bottomless well.

Stupid f*ckin idea.

I wonder what said benefits are?

We have something going on in Victoria with the ridiculous and extremely expensive secondary sewage treatment project that'll spend 750,000,000 with expensive yearly costs. Retarded.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

What are you talking about? Toronto is a black hole. Its gravitational force sucks cash from the rest of the province. It ain't the other way around.

This is more than just Toronto that benefits from these types of projects. So while Toronto may be a black hole, this project affects more than just Toronto.

saturn_656 saturn_656:

So the government axes money from the fund to maintain my roads, roads where properly paved shoulders are a rare luxury (and for one highway, any paving at all.) while wanting to raise my taxes explicitly to pay for someone else's transit, transit which even in its current state is of extraordinary quality when compared to what we are stuck with?

Nope, sorry.

Nothing about Toronto's transit is extraordinary. It's awful and inefficient. You can't compare areas that have mass transit and bitch because you don't have it....you don't get city-like services and roads when you're not in the City....but you do get a lot of other things that you couldn't otherwise afford, like hospitals and other infrastructure.

[BeaverFever]

I'm with OTI on this one. GTA generates more than half of Ontario's GDP. Many (most?) of the other private sector employers in the rest of Ontario are either headquartered in GTA, rely on GTA markets, or their primary customers/suppliers do. Toronto gridlock, which give the city the continent's longest commute times, costs the Canadian economy $3.3 Billion annually, according to OECD.

CDN Patriot points out that transit planning in GTA and Ontario in general has been poor, short-sighted and haphazard. For example, Bob Rae - rightly or wrongly - started construction on the Eglinton West subway line, a project that had been on the shelf for nearly 3 decades and $50-million later, tunnel was dug. Mike Harris came to office a year later and - rightly or wrongly - cancelled the project and filled it back in. Other similar dysfunctions go back all the way to the very first proposed transit lines in the early 20th century.

But where CP misses the mark is that many of these problems are attributable to the fact that there has never been any sustained and secure transit funding. Year-over-year, transit authorities and municipalities don't know how much they'll be getting so no real long-term planning can take place.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

This is more than just Toronto that benefits from these types of projects. So while Toronto may be a black hole, this project affects more than just Toronto.

For $500, I should get a life-time pass to ride the TTC. Even if I live a long, long time, that'd still be expensive for me on a per-ride basis.

[BeaverFever]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Jonny_C Jonny_C:

"We're very aware that $477 for a family is a substantial amount of money, but we believe it's more than offset by the benefits," Metrolinx chairman Robert Prichard said.

Going back to the bottomless well.

Stupid f*ckin idea.

I wonder what said benefits are?

We have something going on in Victoria with the ridiculous and extremely expensive secondary sewage treatment project that'll spend 750,000,000 with expensive yearly costs. Retarded.

According to the independent report, the net economic benefit of the 25-year plan is $15.5B and 430,000 new jobs.


Report (PDF)

[BeaverFever]

Lemmy Lemmy:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

This is more than just Toronto that benefits from these types of projects. So while Toronto may be a black hole, this project affects more than just Toronto.

For $500, I should get a life-time pass to ride the TTC. Even if I live a long, long time, that'd still be expensive for me on a per-ride basis.

Monthly Metro pass is currently $121 a month, so not sure your math adds up. Plus since the tax is a subsidy to the fare-box, if we have to reimburse the taxpayer from the fare box, the whole exercise is moot.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Lemmy Lemmy:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

This is more than just Toronto that benefits from these types of projects. So while Toronto may be a black hole, this project affects more than just Toronto.

For $500, I should get a life-time pass to ride the TTC. Even if I live a long, long time, that'd still be expensive for me on a per-ride basis.

Monthly Metro pass is currently $121 a month, so not sure your math adds up. Plus since the tax is a subsidy to the fare-box, if we have to reimburse the taxpayer from the fare box, the whole exercise is moot.

Don't mind Lemmy, he suffers from the same issue lots of people have who say "what's in it for me".

The time to stop talking and taking action is now.

[raydan]

OTI... what happened with the casino plans, I just found out yesterday that the city opted out last week?

[Lemmy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Monthly Metro pass is currently $121 a month, so not sure your math adds up. Plus since the tax is a subsidy to the fare-box, if we have to reimburse the taxpayer from the fare box, the whole exercise is moot.

I think I've ridden the TTC twice in the past decade. My math is just fine.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Don't mind Lemmy, he suffers from the same issue lots of people have who say "what's in it for me".

We should all ask that question, shouldn't we? But from an economics perspective, I prefer user fees. If the TTC needs expansion, it should be TTC users and their employers that pay for it, not me.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

The time to stop talking and taking action is now.

Not 20 years ago when Harris shut down the digging?

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

We should all ask that question, shouldn't we? But from an economics perspective, I prefer user fees. If the TTC needs expansion, it should be TTC users and their employers that pay for it, not me.

What you prefer and what makes sense aren't the same.

Lemmy Lemmy:

Not 20 years ago when Harris shut down the digging?

Playing politics? I'm not. I don't care who fucked up in the past. It's time to move beyond the petty "but your guy did this..." and get on with it.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

But from an economics perspective, I prefer user fees. If the TTC needs expansion, it should be TTC users and their employers that pay for it, not me.

Great. Institute per mile charges for drivers then. Roads are paid for out of general revenue, and the subsidy for drivers is much larger than for transit users.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Institute per mile charges for drivers then.

And abolish taxes on fuel? That's a great idea!

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

Great. Institute per mile charges for drivers then. Roads are paid for out of general revenue, and the subsidy for drivers is much larger than for transit users.

Excise taxes on gasoline, andy, are one of the most effective user-pays systems we have.

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

Great. Institute per mile charges for drivers then. Roads are paid for out of general revenue, and the subsidy for drivers is much larger than for transit users.

Excise taxes on gasoline, andy, are one of the most effective user-pays systems we have.

What Lemmy said.

The problem is that fuel taxes were originally implemented to pay for the roads - which makes sense - and then the politicians couldn't keep their mitts off the money so they took the taxes into the general funds and then made roads a budget item.

The result is that fuel taxes are a net gain to the general funds - not a loss.

$1:

The Government of Canada collects about $5 billion per year in excise taxes on gasoline, diesel, and aviation fuel[4] as well as approximately $1.6 billion per year from GST revenues on gasoline and diesel (net of input tax credits). The Canada Revenue Agency, a part of the government, collects these taxes.

Collectively, the provincial governments collect approximately $8 billion per year from excise taxes on gasoline and diesel.

The federal taxes go into general coffers and help to fund a range of programs: $2 billion of the approximately $5 billion collected from federal excise taxes goes into the now permanent annual Gas Tax Fund for municipal infrastructure. Provincial tax revenues usually go to fund road repair and construction, and additionally in some provinces a portion of revenues (for example, 2 cents/litre in Ontario) is also distributed directly to municipalities.[5]

$6.6 billion comes in as tax revenue while only $2 billion goes to taking care of the roads.

That means that drivers subsidize the government to the tune of $4.6 billion per year.

[andyt]

They go into general revenue and from what I understand don't come close to paying for roads.

You can't have a big city without an effective transit system. There's no way the city could deal with the volume of cars on the road if there is no transit - make transit too expensive and that's what you get.