[DrRosen]

It's not a case of defending muslim actions, it's attempting to explain and understand them. There's a reason why they make jihadist attacks against the west and it's the same reason they did so 400 years ago. Are we really so dumb as to not learn from history?

The issues surrounding muslim treatment of women and the failure to separate church and state are separate issues altogether and are legitimate criticisms of the Islamic world. But those are issues of education, not of religion in general nor Islam in particular. Christian society was not dissimilar in those regards before it modernized. Backward uneducated peoples act backward and uneducated no matter their religion.

But Muslim jihad against the west is absolutely our doing. You don't blame a dog for biting you when you kick in the face first.

[andyt]

DrRosen DrRosen:

But Muslim jihad against the west is absolutely our doing. You don't blame a dog for biting you when you kick in the face first.

This seems as extreme to me as Fiddle Dog et al's position on the other side. If it's all our fault, especially for whatever historical grievances, then we might as well just surrender to them.

Muslims invaded Europe first - why don't we harp on that, say they kicked us first and now we're going to keep kicking them. Makes as much sense as what you're saying. Going by historical wrongs is just a mugs' game, a never ending round and round. We'd better stand strong against the jihadis if we want our way of life to continue (at least until we totally fuck it up ourselves). But we don't need to keep creating enemies where there are none, including those Muslims who are quite willing to live in peace with us.

[DrRosen]

The differece, Andy, is Muslims invaded Europe in the 8th century, were repulsed and the fight was over. In the modern context, the west hasn't relented. The 8th century troubles were conflicts truly rooted in religion, though the conflict was more about them having different religions than anything particular to their specific doctrines.

The post 15th century conflicts aren't religious, no matter what the bigots would have us believe. They're conflict rooted in greed and desire to control strategic resources. That's a fight that the west initiated and continues to perpetuate.

[andyt]

The 8th century was about conquest, plain and simple. And what, Muslim conquest for religion makes it OK? No different than "Christian" conquest. Seems to me I also read something about the Ottomans being defeated at the gates of Vienna in the 17th century - so it wasn't a one time deal.

We're one half of the dance, so we're not just innocent here. But to just blame ourselves, as I say, and not fight back when attacked would be a disaster. We've made lots of mistakes in more recent times too, from support of the house of Saud to abandoning Astan after the defeat of Russia there to Iraq II. As I say, we need to reach out to Muslims who are willing to live in peace with us. But the jihadis, we need to kick their asses. And I don't feel comfortable having too many Muslims in the West, because it is such a strong proselytising religion. Like CAIR, which freely admits that its goal to to turn the US and Canada into Muslim states. No thanks. It was a long fight for the West to become secular, still under attack from Christians at times. Don't want to go back on that.

[martin14]

DrRosen DrRosen:

The differece, Andy, is Muslims invaded Europe in the 8th century, were repulsed and the fight was over.

wrong.

[DrRosen]

andyt andyt:

The 8th century was about conquest, plain and simple. And what, Muslim conquest for religion makes it OK? No different than "Christian" conquest. Seems to me I also read something about the Ottomans being defeated at the gates of Vienna in the 17th century - so it wasn't a one time deal.

We're one half of the dance, so we're not just innocent here. But to just blame ourselves, as I say, and not fight back when attacked would be a disaster. We've made lots of mistakes in more recent times too, from support of the house of Saud to abandoning Astan after the defeat of Russia there to Iraq II. As I say, we need to reach out to Muslims who are willing to live in peace with us. But the jihadis, we need to kick their asses. And I don't feel comfortable having too many Muslims in the West, because it is such a strong proselytising religion. Like CAIR, which freely admits that its goal to to turn the US and Canada into Muslim states. No thanks. It was a long fight for the West to become secular, still under attack from Christians at times. Don't want to go back on that.

It's not a blame game. It's just the way it is. The relevant point is that the conflict is a conflict of difference, not one of anything particular about the difference. It's not a conflict based on the evils of Islam, as Fiddler would have you believe.

[Gunnair]

stratos stratos:

So I take it that you do feel guilty for things that happened in 1620? I'm tired of being told that muslims are doing things today for acts commited hundreds of years ago. If we are going to base all rational upon that premiss then the muslims will be in a very bad spot historicaly speaking.

Why should I respond to N-Fiddledogs words when you, rosen and others all seem to just love to respond to them. Then again I did respond to his, yours and everyone else who loved spewing hate for and against in this thread. I'll repeat them sense you missed it. "Let’s face it both sides, Muslim and Christians, have committed atrocities against each other for a very long time.I say we let it go and move on."

I think the point might be that you can't be bothered to respond to the litany of anti-Muslim agenda posts by FD, Bart, Martin etc but you will respond to those who negatively respond to them while claiming you are in fact responding to them.

I'd be curious to see those responses to the guys who actually spam the site vice those who respond to the spam.

[Gunnair]

martin14 martin14:

DrRosen DrRosen:

The differece, Andy, is Muslims invaded Europe in the 8th century, were repulsed and the fight was over.

wrong.

How did that response work as your doctorate thesis?

[andyt]

As I wrote before, I do think Islam has a much more violent element at its core than Christianity, just going by the actions of their founders. Christians have been much worse at following the teachings of their founder than Muslims, since their founder was right into war. So I can say that Islam has more "evil" built in.

But none of that matters. What matters is, as you say, we're not them, and most of us don't want to be them, while they sure want us to be them, if you follow. We have to fight that. Demonizing all Muslims will just come back to bite us in the ass, but making excuses for the ones that do attack us isn't a good idea either. Nor is the equivilancy game we like to play in the West - all cultures are equally beautiful and all that. Maybe to an outside observer, but inside, I think we're best and need to maintain and fight for it.

[Gunnair]

stratos stratos:

I'm tired of being told that muslims are doing things today for acts commited hundreds of years ago.

Agreed.

So, if they are not responding to distant atrocities, what are they responding to? Are they responding to western intervention, both economic and military? Are they responding to support of a very hostile country in their midst - a foreign supported Cuba in their midst with a hell of a lot more capability?

Or is it because they hate our freedom?

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

As I wrote before, I do think Islam has a much more violent element at its core than Christianity, just going by the actions of their founders. Christians have been much worse at following the teachings of their founder than Muslims, since their founder was right into war. So I can say that Islam has more "evil" built in.

But none of that matters. What matters is, as you say, we're not them, and most of us don't want to be them, while they sure want us to be them, if you follow. We have to fight that. Demonizing all Muslims will just come back to bite us in the ass, but making excuses for the ones that do attack us isn't a good idea either. Nor is the equivilancy game we like to play in the West - all cultures are equally beautiful and all that. Maybe to an outside observer, but inside, I think we're best and need to maintain and fight for it.

Interesting.

One has more evil built into it and the other does not, but has more people hiding evil behind it.

Agree with the fact that not all cultures are rainbows and unicorns. I also agree we need to be more careful of who we are bringing in.

[andyt]

Christians are more hypocritical than Muslims, in general, I guess is what I'm trying to say. If Christians had truly followed Christ, they would be, at best, like Jews, ie a small minority. Muslims, at least, can say they're just doing what their leader ordered. That of course doesn't give them a bye as far as I'm concerned.

[Gunnair]

andyt andyt:

Christians are more hypocritical than Muslims, in general, I guess is what I'm trying to say. If Christians had truly followed Christ, they would be, at best, like Jews, ie a small minority. Muslims, at least, can say they're just doing what their leader ordered. That of course doesn't give them a bye as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed.

[BartSimpson]

desertdude desertdude:

Well if Abu Imawanker says it, it must be right. Well it was nice knowing y'all but get ready to get mutilated ( Good thing Abu Imawanker skipped on the cannibal part, I don't think fiddly didly and martin would taste very nice, well maybe with some ketchup ).

I'm filling up the pools as we speak !



*Cue bart to post some out of context scripture saying its so and fidly to post some youtubes

Who needs to post vague scriptures? Here's a whole sh*tload of videos of beheadings taking place in Saudi Arabia - the very homeland of your religion:

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=saudi+be ... tion+video

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

desertdude desertdude:

Well if Abu Imawanker says it, it must be right. Well it was nice knowing y'all but get ready to get mutilated ( Good thing Abu Imawanker skipped on the cannibal part, I don't think fiddly didly and martin would taste very nice, well maybe with some ketchup ).

I'm filling up the pools as we speak !



*Cue bart to post some out of context scripture saying its so and fidly to post some youtubes

Who needs to post vague scriptures? Here's a whole sh*tload of videos of beheadings taking place in Saudi Arabia - the very homeland of your religion:

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=saudi+be ... tion+video

I would have thought that you'd be alright with be headings as a form of execution. Seems bit more dramatic and nit so touchy feely on the guilty as say lethal injection.

Honestly, ignoring the crimes of beheading, don't you advocate for some rather brutal executions for the really bad types?

I'm rather for the guillotine myself if we were to bring back the death penalty.