[andyt]

Seems the Ukrainian govt is rushing in now. They just should have done it long ago. Standing there with your finger up your ass trying to look sly - not much to be gained.

Meanwhile you come up with stupid ideas about assassinating Putin or NATO starting WW III.

Europe should be applying further sanctions. That's the only effective way to help Ukraine, but they do have to do more than just play damsel in distress and yell for help. Which they are doing now - no more criticism from me. Just should have done it as soon as things started up in East Ukraine.

[Winnipegger]

How is laser development going? In the summer of 2009, I read about the US air force working on a combat laser for the F-35A. The idea is the space for the lift fan of an F-35B VTOL would be used for a generator for the laser, and connected to the same engine shaft. This would provide unlimited ammunition, as long as the jet has fuel. I had read a laser was deployed on a C-130 Hercules, as a test. Able to take out a passenger in the back seat of a car without killing anyone else in the car. Chemical Oxygen Iodine Laser (COIL) is working, solid state still needs work. At least according to what has been released to the public. The Advanced Tactical Laser was a COIL on a C-130, in the 100kW range. Could a 30kW COIL laser destroy a MANPADS missile? The idea is install on the belly of a helicopter for defence. I say 30kW because that's available for commercial use.

What is avaiable now: New Laser Hides Aircraft From Missiles
This doesn't destory anything, just blinds the missile's sensors. Could that be considered "non-lethal aid"?

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Seems the Ukrainian govt is rushing in now. They just should have done it long ago. Standing there with your finger up your ass trying to look sly - not much to be gained.

Meanwhile you come up with stupid ideas about assassinating Putin or NATO starting WW III.

Europe should be applying further sanctions. That's the only effective way to help Ukraine, but they do have to do more than just play damsel in distress and yell for help. Which they are doing now - no more criticism from me. Just should have done it as soon as things started up in East Ukraine.

First it was action, now it is sanctions. Do you really think Vlad give a tinkers damn about sanctions? Well do you?

Ya know I consider myself to be quite average. I look, I read, I evaluate, digest the info and then form a course of action, an option or an opinion.
You miss all of that. Fools rush in.

[andyt]

Really? Now you're against sanctions? Your thumb just keeps going further and further up your ass, huh? You must be really disappointed. Ukraine is moving against the insurgency, sanctions are in place. Maybe there won't be much need for you to go in and assassinate Putin after all.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

Really? Now you're against sanctions? Your thumb just keeps going further and further up your ass, huh? You must be really disappointed. Ukraine is moving against the insurgency, sanctions are in place. Maybe there won't be much need for you to go in and assassinate Putin after all.

Are you that dumb. I informed you what Vlad thinks of sanctions.
Let me consider my 1st point again.

So far it appears you are that dumb. Prove me wrong. Ya haven't yet, but give it all ya got.

[andyt]

I doubt you know what Vlad thinks of sanctions. Actually, properly applied, they would bring him to his knees right quick. But Germany and England just aren't willing to take the pain that would involve. Might still come to that tho. Still, it's all we've got, we're not going to go to war with Russia.

But then you want to just stand there quivvering, doing absolutely nothing. That's guaranteed not to work. You think Putine will back off from that? But I forget, I'm sure he's trembling because he knows you're going to assassinate him.

[Goober911]

andyt andyt:

I doubt you know what Vlad thinks of sanctions. Actually, properly applied, they would bring him to his knees right quick. But Germany and England just aren't willing to take the pain that would involve. Might still come to that tho. Still, it's all we've got, we're not going to go to war with Russia.

But then you want to just stand there quivvering, doing absolutely nothing. That's guaranteed not to work. You think Putine will back off from that? But I forget, I'm sure he's trembling because he knows you're going to assassinate him.

Right, my question from the previous post was answered in Spades.

[saturn_656]

http://www.casr.ca/ft-daly-opinion-french-mistral.htm

$1:

Crimea and Punishment – Canada and an opportunity for sanctions on Russia for Ukraine

The world has watched with a mixture of disgust and trepidation as Vladimir Putin-led Russia has invaded and annexed a portion of the Ukraine. The Crimean Peninsula has been seized, an illegal referendum held, and  then used as a pretext  for the formal annexation of  Crimea.

Not since the end of the Cold War have tensions between Russia and NATO been so high. Russia has been unceremoniously tossed out of the G-8 and sanctions have been emplaced. Counter sanctions have been declared and even the UN deemed the Russian actions illegal. As always, the trouble with such measures is that to be effective they must really affect the person whose actions you are protesting. But Vladimir Putin may care little about anyone's opinion except his own. Sanctions, by themselves, will have little effect on Russian actions.

Something more is needed – Perhaps sanctions on the sale of western warships to Russia?

That something more has to be tangible, something that even an autocrat like Vladimir Putin can't help but notice. Preferably, it needs also to be something that causes embarrassment to the Putin government whose actions (in the eyes of  Russia's people) must be seen to have diminished Russia's international reputation rather than to have enhanced that reputation.

A concrete demonstration of NATO displeasure is feasible (even if it's made of steel and not concrete!).  France's state-controlled  DCNS  [1]  is contracted  to provide two Mistral class amphibious warfare ship to the Russian government. STX France has been building the two LHDs – the Vladivostok and the Sevastopol – in Saint-Nazaire but the near-completed ships have not  been delivered  to the Russian Navy. There has been great concern on both sides of the Atlantic over the French sale of  these vessels to the Russians. Since the start of  the Crimean Crisis, France has  flip-flopped  on whether it would deliver the vessels. And major considerations facing the French are the costs associated with cancelling this Mistral order.




To the French, the Mistral is a projection and command ship (Bâtiments de Projection et de Commandement). DCNS/STX France have built three BPCs to the French Marine nationale: BPC Mistral in 2006, Tonnerre in 2007, and Dixmude in 2009. [2]  In late 2011, a contract was signed with Russia to provide two further Mistral class ships along with associated services which includes technology transfers. As with the Marine nationale vessels, DCNS acted as prime contractor while STX France does the actual assembly as subcontractor. An important difference this time is that STX also has a subcontractor ... in the form of a Russian shipyard.

The St Petersburg-based Baltiysky Zavod (Baltic Shipyard) is responsible for construction of stern section blocks for the two Russian Mistral ships. The completed stern sections were then towed to the STX yard in Saint-Nazaire for mating with the French-built forward sections. The agreed plan is that the third and  fourth planned Mistrals are to be constructed entirely in Russia by Baltic Yards.

In response to the Crimean referendum, the then-foreign minister Laurent Fabius considered cancelling the delivery of the Mistral class ships to Russia as part of sanctions agreed to by the US, Canada, and the EU. Then the French government reversed its position, claiming the Mistrals are 'civilian hulls' until Russia armed the ships. But this position may change again. French President, François Hollande, has just accepted the resignation of his entire Cabinet.

France is in a tough position. The 'optics' of delivering a new warship named Sevastopol to the Russians in the midst of  the Crimean Crisis are appalling. But reneging on this contract will have a severe affect on an already shaky French economy  –  not least  because France, gallingly, would be forced to compensate Russia for those St Petersburg-built hull sections.




What France needs is an alternate customer for those semi-completed Mistral class ships

Canada can be that alternative customer. That a Mistral class amphibious warfare, command and control, and power projection ship would fill a huge gap in RCN capability goes without saying. But this isn't primarily a naval decision. It's political. Prime Minister Harper has been one of the more outspoken leaders protesting Russian actions – not surprising as Canada is one of  the countries most isolated  from Russian countermeasures. Much of Russia's power stems from the threat of turning off  the flow of  gas to Western Europe. Russia can't do that to Canada. In fact, shipping Canada's own copious reserves of natural gas to European allies would be the most effective economic sanction Ottawa could impose on Russia over Crimea.

Then there is the possibility of poking Vladimir Putin in the eye by taking over ownership of the Sevastopol. That makes acquiring the Mistral class ship from France a political decision. So what are the factors involved and how would Canada go about buying the Mistral class?

There was an ounce of truth to M. Fabius' claim that the Mistrals are 'civilian hulls'. They are warships built to current  'civilian' standards and  they were to be delivered without weapons systems or communications electronics. That is actually a bonus for Canada as the ship can be sent to a Canadian shipyard for fitting-out with the RCN's preferred systems. At present, the only major Canadian shipyard not tied up in NSPS requirements is the Davie Shipyard in Quebec. In the midst of a provincial election, the Feds' political timing could hardly be better.

Kitting out a 'Big Honkin' Ship' – a Canadian maple leaf on the funnel of the Mistral class

For Canada, it would be a happy accident that Mistrals for Russia were to be delivered without any weapons or comms fitted. This allows the RCN to select the systems offering maximum compatibility with Canada's in-service warships. The RCN  is also in the advantageous position of  being in the middle of Halifax class frigates upgrades (the Halifax class Modernization / Frigate Life Extension program) which means a modern sensor and C4I package are already selected. Canada need only adapt the FELEX electronics to the Mistral and get  Davie to install them.

For France, the stigma of  having sold  warships  to Russia in the midst of a crisis is avoided. France saves face and dodges the huge economic consequences of a cancelled Mistral sale. By offering an immediate purchase of  the Mistral, Canada effectively enforces sanctions on Russia for its actions against Ukraine. And into the bargain, the RCN gains a new capability.

Since the 'Russian' Mistrals are at an advanced stage of construction, Canada could take on the ship (or ships?) in very short order. Vladivostok was to be operational with the Russian Navy in the second half of 2016. Sevastopol was due to arrive in St. Petersburg in Nov 2015.

Even in naming a Mistral, the Government of  Canada would have attractive choices. As an amphibious warfare vessel, HMCS Juno Beach leaps out (and has a French connection). But the Mistral would also have a Canadian Command and Control role. The centenary of World War One (and Canada's emergence on the world stage) suggests another possibility: HMCS Vimy Ridge. HMCS Vimy Ridge would carry her illustrious name well past the centenary. No greater remembrance of a seminal moment, forming the Canadian psyche, can be envisioned.

It should be noted that even the public offer to acquire the 'Russian' Mistral would serve as notice that Canada takes Russian actions against Ukraine seriously and  Canada is willing to commit to concrete action. Acquisition of  the ship would be a most advantageous result but the symbolism of our offer to ease France's burden from sanctions is even more important.[3]

[1] The French Government owns 75% of  DCNS shares; the remainder are owned by Thales. US  Department of  State files comment that the sale to Russia primarily benefits STX France while noting that government-appointed DCNS Director, Patrick Boissier, once headed STX.

[2] BPC Dixmude, the third Mistral hull for the Marine nationale, was ordered in April 2009 as part of an economic stimulus package proposed by the former President Nicolas Sarkozy.

[3] France's Mistral deal with Moscow has been valued at €1.2 billion (or $1.824B Canadian).

[Winnipegger]

Considering what is happening, why would any NATO country even think of selling arms to Russia?

[andyt]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Considering what is happening, why would any NATO country even think of selling arms to Russia?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The same reason they don't put in sanctions that have serious bite.

[saturn_656]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Considering what is happening, why would any NATO country even think of selling arms to Russia?

The French will sell to anybody.

Anybody.

[andyt]

Yep. Just as effective would be if Britain shutdown all the business they do with Russian oligarchs. Hell seize or freeze their assets. Putin would probably be dead in short order.

[PostFactum]

Only 15% of crimeans voted for membership in the RUSSIAN FEDERATION

$1:

Crimea for joining to Russia had not actually voted – such a statement recently appeared on the website of the Council under the President of Russia on the development of civil society and human rights.
Inconvenient news from the presidential site quickly removed, but pravozahisnicâ Svetlana Gannuškìna said in an interview with "Channel 24" that Russia oskandalilasâ the Crimean campaign, said in a report by TSN. week.
Gannuškìna is one of those who researched the Crimean mood.
According to the members of Presidential Council on March referendum on the status of the Autonomous Republic came up to 30% of the population. And only half of those with ʼ appeared on the referendum, voted for annexation to Russia.
Consequently, the fate of the Ukrainian Crimea determined prorosìjs′ka minority: approximately 15%.
Previously, the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people claimed that the real turnout figures in the so-called "referendum" and votes for joining of Crimea to RUSSIA razûčo smaller than announced by Russia.
According to the Kremlin, almost 97% of support instances of Crimea to Russia. And it is this "vote" supposedly became the basis for the so-called "agreement" about the inclusion of the "State of the Crimea" to Russian Federation.

http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/05/5/7024385/

[Jabberwalker]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Considering what is happening, why would any NATO country even think of selling arms to Russia?

The French will sell to anybody.

Anybody.

... often to both sides of a conflict.

[stratos]

$1:

Actually, properly applied, they would bring him to his knees right quick.

Just like those sanctions got Castro out of Cuba?