[Winnipegger]

I would like everyone to just get along.

• The majority of people in east Ukraine (70% according to Washington Post poll) do not want to separate from Ukraine. But most do want more autonomy. Fine. So do something similar to a Canadian province.
• People in east Ukraine who speak the Russian language want to continue to do so. Fine. Canada has two official languages (English/French), Netherlands has one official (Dutch) and one "recognised" (Frisian), Switzerland has four. So let them continue to speak that language. Treat east Ukraine like Quebec.
• Russia wants continued access to military equipment manufactured in Ukraine. Fine. So sell that to them. I'm sure people in east Ukraine are worried about their jobs. Rich businessmen want multi-billion dollar (rubble?) contracts from Russia. So just do so.
• Vlad Putin said he wants Ukraine to be neutral. Neither part of NATO nor any Russian military alliance. Fine. That may be "Finlandizing", but so what. Just do it.
• Sound like he's given up on Ukraine joining EAU, but with all these problems the EU doesn't want Ukraine anyway. So fine, do business/trade with the West and Russia.
• Russia took Crimea. President Obama likes to pound his chest about that, but frankly that's done. And there's so much support in Crimea for Russia that it's never going to come back to Ukraine. Let it go.
• Post-Factum reported that Ukraine wants the 1 trillion gripen from Crimea banks. So apply that to Ukraine's debt.
• Ensure all Ukraine navy ships, aircraft, etc. are returned to Ukraine. Probably America or NATO would help with repairs. Russia should pay, but good luck getting that. Getting NATO to pay for repairs side-steps that problem.

This should solve everything. And should be done quickly. The more blood that's shed, the more animosity.

[DrCaleb]

$1:

Ukraine crisis: 300 pro-Russian militants killed overnight, government says
Rebels deny government claims of 300 dead, 500 wounded

Government forces pressed on with an offensive in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday, claiming they had inflicted heavy losses on separatist fighters, though this was denied by the rebels.

A spokesman for Kyiv's "anti-terrorist operation" said more than 300 rebel fighters had been killed and about 500 wounded in fierce fighting in the past 24 hours in and around the city of Slovyansk, a strategically located separatist stronghold.

Government forces used aircraft, helicopters and artillery in a fierce attack to try to root out the separatists who have controlled Slovyansk and surrounding areas since early April.

But the rebels on Wednesday denied the government's casualty figures. "Reports of 300 dead are not true. Losses to the Ukrainian side were more than ours," Aleksander Boroday, "prime minister" of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, was quoted as saying by Interfax news agency.

Describing the fighting as "heavy", the government forces spokesman, Vladyslav Seleznyov, said two servicemen had been killed and 45 wounded.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-cr ... -1.2664176

[BartSimpson]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

[*]Vlad Putin said he wants Ukraine to be neutral. Neither part of NATO nor any Russian military alliance. Fine. That may be "Findlandizing", but so what. Just do it.

Except that Putin's own actions in invading Ukraine and seizing its territory make the demand that Ukraine be neutral utterly void. Russia is at war with Ukraine and it is impossible for Ukraine to be nuetral in matters concenring its relationship with Russia.

[Winnipegger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Except that Putin's own actions in invading Ukraine and seizing its territory make the demand that Ukraine be neutral utterly void. Russia is at war with Ukraine and it is impossible for Ukraine to be nuetral in matters concenring its relationship with Russia.

Any sort of peace agreement starts by putting aside all atrocities during the conflict, and choosing to move on from here. No one likes it, but that's the only way it will work. And there are a significant number of people in east Ukraine who want close ties to Russia. So demonizing Russia isn't going to work. Separatists are a minority in the east, but armed. The majority of citizens aren't active, but I suspect they care about their jobs. Polls have shown the majority do not want to separate from Ukraine, but they will continue to speak the Russian language, want more autonomy, and want to continue to be affiliated with Russia. West Ukraine wants to join NATO, but the east Ukraine will separate before they let that happen. Most citizens of east Ukraine do not want violent conflict, but I suspect they are so adamant about not joining NATO that they would rather separate. Evidence for this is the conflict itself.

Today President Obama gave a speech, he said the age of spheres of influence is over. That's very appropriate. It isn't NATO vs Russia and their allies. It's just the world, just business.

[Jabberwalker]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Putin's been invited to the D-Day commemoration services in France, even though the any Russians in that battle were probably fighting for the Germans, at the time.

No need to exaggerate. We have enough trouble with governments re-writing history, please don't contribute. Russia was proud the defeated the Germans. As DrCaleb said...

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Russia is fiercely proud that it stood against and repelled the Germans in WWII, despite being out gunned and outmatched.

Russia was an ally during WWII. Perhaps we all need to be reminded of that.

Yes, the Soviet Union was our ally. Just like the anti-Nazi Germans (and there were a great many of those) there were anti-communist Russians (and plenty of Ukrainians) who fought in the German army. You will never successfully pigeon hole everyone into "good guy"-"bad guy" slots. History is a continuum of gray shades ... not black and white.

There were Poles on both sides of this conflict as well and lots of them were even in SS units. It is noteworthy, though, that the Free Poles fought bravely and effectively (alongside the Canadians) in Normandy and it was the Poles who ultimately closed the Falaise Gap.

[Goober911]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Putin's been invited to the D-Day commemoration services in France, even though the any Russians in that battle were probably fighting for the Germans, at the time.

No need to exaggerate. We have enough trouble with governments re-writing history, please don't contribute. Russia was proud the defeated the Germans. As DrCaleb said...

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Russia is fiercely proud that it stood against and repelled the Germans in WWII, despite being out gunned and outmatched.

Russia was an ally during WWII. Perhaps we all need to be reminded of that.

Yes, the Soviet Union was our ally. Just like the anti-Nazi Germans (and there were a great many of those) there were anti-communist Russians (and plenty of Ukrainians) who fought in the German army. You will never successfully pigeon hole everyone into "good guy"-"bad guy" slots. History is a continuum of gray shades ... not black and white.

There were Poles on both sides of this conflict as well and lots of them were even in SS units. It is noteworthy, though, that the Free Poles fought bravely and effectively (alongside the Canadians) in Normandy and it was the Poles who ultimately closed the Falaise Gap.

A little known fact is that Jews served as well.

http://www.haaretz.com/caught-in-the-mi ... y-1.185805

http://www.jewishquarterly.org/issuearc ... icleid=194

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/muse ... enemy.html

[Goober911]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/04 ... n-ukraine/

The Kyiv government claims it killed 300 rebels during a day-long offensive involving fierce fighting in eastern Ukraine.

The insurgents rejected the figure but gave no account of its casualties after Ukrainian troops on Tuesday launched an offensive against pro-Russian rebels in Slovyansk, a city that sits on a strategic highway about 90 kilometresnorth of Donetsk, the largest city in the east.

Two government soldiers were killed and 42 injured in daylong fighting, Vladislav Seleznyov, press secretary for Ukraine’s operation against the rebels in the east, told Ukrainian news agencies. Mr. Seleznyov put the death toll of the rebels at 300. After a day of battles, government forces managed to dislodge rebels from the town of Krasny Liman, just east of Slovyansk.

[Goober911]

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/208041.html
A bill on granting an official status to the Russian language, which was submitted by MP Serhiy Kivalov from the Regions Party and independent MP Svitlana Fabrykant, foresees the use of Russian language in all spheres of life on the territory of Ukraine.

According to the bill posted on Verkhovna Rada, "the Russian language is used in all spheres of life, where citizen or a private organization deals with state, its agencies and servicemen, public power sector in general."

Besides, the documents proposes "to standardize the use of the Russian language in its new status in the court process, the work of the legal profession and notaries, state regulation of science, education and healthcare," the bill said.

For this purpose, the draft law offers to make amendments into the law of Ukraine "On the basis of state language policy", procedural codes, laws on state service and local self-government agencies service, scientific-education activity, healthcare.

[PostFactum]

I see you're doing well in this topic without me I'm back, was in the village.

[PostFactum]

So for today:
1. 80 Ukrainian tanks have been located around Slovyansk.
2. Putin said to president of France that he has some influence on Separatists.
3. NATO and EU will speak about Ukraine on Tuesday.
4. Poroshenko had meeting with Putin.
5. Ukraine closed 8 transfer points on Ukrainian-Russian border.
6. Tomorrow Poroshenko will officially become the president of Ukraine.
7. At least 61 Ukrainian soldier is dead during war with Russia.
8. Some info about Ukrainian an-30 down.

[Winnipegger]

PostFactum PostFactum:

8. Some info about Ukrainian an-30 down.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

[Canadian_Mind]

an-30 is a type of aircraft. one may have been shot down.

[PostFactum]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

PostFactum PostFactum:

8. Some info about Ukrainian an-30 down.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

[PostFactum]

http://www.1plus1.ua/online Inauguration of 5-th Ukrainian president online.

[PostFactum]

Harper is there too.