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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:31 am
 


CBC: Ukraine, rebels accuse each other of attacking refugee bus convoy
$1:
Dozens of people, including women and children, were killed fleeing fighting in eastern Ukraine on Monday when their convoy of buses was hit by rocket fire, military spokesmen said.

Ukraine accused pro-Russian rebels of targeting the convoy, which it said was bearing white flags when it was hit near the eastern city of Luhansk. The separatists denied responsibility.

"The rebels were expecting the convoy and destroyed it entirely," military spokesman Andriy Lysenko told journalists. "We haven't been able to count the number of victims ... dozens (were killed)."
...
A rebel leader denied his forces had the military capability to conduct such an attack, and accused Kyiv forces of regularly attacking the area and also using Russian-made Grad missiles.

"The Ukrainians themselves have bombed the road constantly with airplanes and Grads. It seems they've now killed more civilians like they've been doing for months now. We don't have the ability to send Grads into that territory," said Andrei Purgin, deputy prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic.

Another rebel spokesman denied any civilian convoy had been struck, challenging the Kyiv authorities to produce evidence.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:17 am
 


I think I've said this before, but I'm torn. I would like to see Ukraine heal from this conflict. That means treating separatists/rebels/insurgents as criminals and citizens of east Ukraine as countrymen, rather than war. President Porosheno calls them terrorists, which does imply criminal. The way to recapture land is with police action, not military force. There was an incident in which the administration building in the city of Mariupol was recaptured by 100 men with baseball bats. Not assault rifles, just baseball bats. That's what I want. But rebels are using heavy weapons; this has become all-out war.

In war, you don't allow your opponent to get supplies. One primary strategy is to starve them out. It's called siege. Water, electricity, and food have been cut off from rebel held territory. That's appropriate. Not just cut off weapons, but basic necessities. When they run out, they'll surrender. Because they have to. If nothing else, cold when winter comes will freeze them out. But "humanitarian supplies" from Russia break that blockade. Russia doesn't have to provide weapons, they're providing generators, food, water. You can't win as long as your opponent has steady supplies.


Last edited by Winnipegger on Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:31 am
 


Winnipegger Winnipegger:
In war, you don't allow your opponent to get supplies. One primary strategy is to starve them out. It's called siege. Water, electricity, and food have been cut off from rebel held territory. That's appropriate. Not just cut of weapons, but basic necessities. When they run out, they'll surrender. Because they have to. If nothing else, cold when winter comes will freeze them out. But "humanitarian supplies" from Russia break that blockade. Russia doesn't have to provide weapons, they're providing generators, food, water. You can't win as long as your opponent has steady supplies.


Not to sound patronizing, but what did you think that convoy was about? The Russians knew exactly when they were doing, and whether Ukraine had turned the convoy around and refused it, or allowed it to proceed - Russia wins a small victory.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 am
 


And why I said that...

National Post: Ukraine: Some Russian aid trucks clearing customs at a rebel-held border post
$1:
KYIV, Ukraine — Some Russian trucks in a massive aid convoy began the process of clearing customs Thursday at a rebel-held border crossing in eastern Ukraine, the Ukrainian border guard service said.
...
Fierce fighting was still reported Thursday in Luhansk, a day after the government said it had captured much of the rebel stronghold 20 kilometres from the Russian border, Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for the Ukrainian National Security Council, told reporters in Kyiv.

The city has been under siege for 19 days, lacking basic amenities like running water or electricity. Residents there are struggling to survive, the International Committee of the Red Cross said Thursday following a visit to Luhansk a day earlier.
...
Rayan Farukshin, spokesman for Southern Customs district of Russia, said Thursday that 16 aid trucks had entered the Russian customs zone on Wednesday that links up with Izvaryne in Ukraine. He said four of the trucks have been successfully checked by the Russian side, while another four were in the process of being checked. After that, the trucks need to get Ukrainian approval.

Meanwhile, five troops were killed and two civilians died in the past 24 hours in rebel-held areas, authorities said. That followed over 50 deaths in the region Wednesday.

Troops were fighting separatists in and around Ilovaysk near the rebel-held city of Donetsk, even though the town is under government control, Lysenko said.

At least two people were killed and an unspecified number wounded Thursday in an artillery strike on a Donetsk suburb, the mayor’s office said.
...
Ukrainian troops claimed Thursday to have seized two Russian armoured vehicles outside of Luhansk. Photos provided by the defence ministry showed one vehicle and an array of Russian civilian and army IDs.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:38 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Not to sound patronizing, but what did you think that convoy was about? The Russians knew exactly when they were doing, and whether Ukraine had turned the convoy around and refused it, or allowed it to proceed - Russia wins a small victory.

I know. And since this has become war, I wouldn't have let it in. Tell citizens of Luhansk they can get basic necessities after the Ukraine government has re-taken control of their city. If citizens want food quickly, then report rebels to the Ukrainian government. Harsh, yes. But a lot less harsh than artillery.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:02 am
 


Winnipegger Winnipegger:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Not to sound patronizing, but what did you think that convoy was about? The Russians knew exactly when they were doing, and whether Ukraine had turned the convoy around and refused it, or allowed it to proceed - Russia wins a small victory.

I know. And since this has become war, I wouldn't have let it in. Tell citizens of Luhansk they can get basic necessities after the Ukraine government has re-taken control of their city. If citizens want food quickly, then report rebels to the Ukrainian government. Harsh, yes. But a lot less harsh than artillery.


Oh, I agree totally. A Siege is a Siege. If the citizens want things restored, they can bring a rebel to a designated area in exchange for food and water. 'Alive' is optional. :twisted:

But that's why Russia sent the convoy, to break the siege. Ukraine would have looked bad if they turned it away, and Russia would have more propaganda to inflict on their citizens to get public support for an invasion.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:34 am
 


We haven't heard from PostFactum since August 12. I hope he's Ok. The web site where he got those maps is on the maps themselves. Looking there I found an update for today.

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=uk&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmediarnbo.org%2F%3Fp%3D4240
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:55 am
 


$1:
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2014-08-19, 02:04:58


PF hasn't been around for a few days. I'm hoping he's okay.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:10 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
$1:
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2014-08-19, 02:04:58


PF hasn't been around for a few days. I'm hoping he's okay.



He took a trip outside Ukraine for work.

I'm sure he is fine.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:23 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
$1:
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2014-08-19, 02:04:58


PF hasn't been around for a few days. I'm hoping he's okay.


He took a trip outside Ukraine for work.

I'm sure he is fine.


R=UP Finally!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:14 pm
 


By the way, my new name for the dictator of Russia is RasPutin. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:09 am
 


$1:
Ukraine crisis: Russian aid convoy crosses border without Kyiv OK

Russia sent dozens of aid trucks into rebel-held eastern Ukraine on Friday without Kyiv's approval, saying its patience had worn out with the Ukrainian government's stalling tactics. Ukraine called the move a "direct invasion."

The unilateral move sharply raised the stakes in eastern Ukraine, for any attack on the convoy could draw the Russian military directly into the conflict between the Ukrainian government in Kyiv and separatist rebels in the east. Ukraine has long accused Russia of supporting and arming the rebels, a charge Russia denies.

The white-tarped semis said to be carrying food, water, generators and sleeping bags are intended to help civilians in the city of Luhansk, where government forces are besieging pro-Russian separatists. The city only 20 kilometres from the Russian border has seen weeks of heavy shelling that has cut off power, water and phone lines and has left food supplies scarce.

In the past few days, Ukraine says its troops have recaptured significant parts of Luhansk, the second-largest rebel-held city, and suspicions are running high that Moscow's humanitarian operation may instead be aimed at halting Kyiv's military momentum. Fierce fighting has been reported this week both around Luhansk and the largest rebel-held city, Donetsk, with dozens of casualties.

Four troops were killed and 23 wounded in the past 24 hours, the government reported at noon Friday.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-cr ... -1.2743706


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:41 pm
 


That same CBC article that DrCaleb provided, includes an interview with the "Second Secretary at the Russian Embassy in Ottawa".
http://www.cbc.ca/video/swf/UberPlayer.swf?state=sharevideo&clipId=2495345609&width=480&height=322

At 7 minutes into the video...
$1:
Evan Soloman: Are you accusing Ukraine of ethnic cleansing Russians?

Russian: We are accusing Ukraine of continuing this so called anti-terrorist stipulation against its own peaople. And now, with you, it's high time it stopped. We are very concerned with the stepped up sharing of this area. We got some concerns, we got some questions, why they do it right now... When we go this important meeting in Minsk on August 26, when they got their own national holiday this Sunday, you know.

Evan: Independence Day

Russian: Of course we are very concerned about, uh, in general we are very concerned about this situation. They are killing their people. There is a all-out war on the ground.

Sounds like a lot of posturing. But the thing I take from this is "stepped up sharing of this area". So Russia wants to "share" the area of Donbas. Remember, that area is very rich with iron and coal deposits, with a lot of industry to not only mine, but smelt to produce steel. Vlad Putin said this is about protecting Russia's economy. Can I take this as a confession that Russia wants to take this area of rich resources? That its really about money?

Remember: Siberia has greater deposits of coal, and Ural mountains have greater deposits of iron, but Donbas has both together for very cost effective steel.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:38 pm
 


Washington Post: Russian trucks leave but Ukraine says they’re taking military parts with them
$1:
A convoy of Russian aid trucks that had entered Ukraine without permission returned to Russia on Saturday, but Ukrainian officials continued to express alarm, saying that Russians had loaded sophisticated military equipment onto the vehicles before they left.

Col. Andriy Lysenko, Ukraine’s military spokesman, said that trucks that had driven into the territory “under the guise of humanitarian convoys” had crossed back into Russia on Saturday morning after being packed with Ukrainian-made equipment used to produce an advanced aircraft-tracking system, as well as ammunition for small arms.

Ohhhhh! So this wasn't about providing weapons to rebels. This was about Russia getting stuff.

I previously recommended giving Russia assurance that Ukraine will continue to sell stuff to Russia. Sell to both Russia and Europe. Would that get Russia to back off?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:38 am
 


Interesting, eh? All those trucks, and it took only 1 day to unload them all in a war-torn and war ravaged city.

And, no. Russia's thought process has always been than not only do they need to 'win', but everyone else must 'lose'. So selling only to Russia is the answer that Russia will accept, I should think.


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