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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:02 am
 


SigPig SigPig:
DerbyX DerbyX:
That is where you cheapen your responses.

Its a PR stunt by everybody but the CPC. Everytime the Libs or NDP make any gesture to the military, visit the troops, or simply try and acknowledge them it gets thrown back in their face as nothing but a baseless attempt for PR purposes. Never does the CPC get that same treatment and so the arguments you gusy are making carry little weight.

This entire flag flap was caused by a CPC MP. He proposed the policy and it would have been political suicide for the Liberals to oppose it, even if they did so under the auspices of tradition.

There is not one single doubt in my mind that had the Liberals not supported the CPC motion they would have been vilified by the very people here now attacking them.

The same crap happens time and again whenever a CDN politician goes to Afghanistan. Every CPC visit was a heartfelt gesture designed to boost morale while every single visit by a Lib or NDP was a vile attempt at a photo op.

Then you turn around and complain that they don't visit enough.

What a joke.

Are they right in doing it? I don't think so but neither do I think they are doing it for a PR stunt especially since all they seem to be getting is negative responses.

They certainly wasted their time if they were looking for that.


"The House of Commons passed a Liberal motion on Wednesday calling for a moment of silence and the lowering of the flag above the Peace Tower on any day a Canadian soldier is killed overseas."

Can't believe you missed the part of of the article where it said that is was a LIBERAL MOTION. It was in the first paragraph and everything. I guess reading it would have been a waste of time when there is nonsense posting to be done.


The original policy of lowering the flag was a CPC motion.

Up until that point, every gov't had followed the flag tradition.

It was the CPC that changed all that yet they received none of the darts and all of the laurels.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:06 am
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
This entire flag flap was caused by a CPC MP. He proposed the policy and it would have been political suicide for the Liberals to oppose it, even if they did so under the auspices of tradition.


Liberals cannot relate to the tradition like Conservatives do because dogmatism is more linked to conservatives than it is to liberals.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:55 am
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
The original policy of lowering the flag was a CPC motion.


There is an actual protocol to lower the flag but it has been circumnavigated by a recent custom formulated under Paul Martin and carried through Chretien and finally Harper. The Liberals wanted to make it a firm policy to ostensibly honour soldiers even though soldiers told them it is more of a disgrace then an honour.

Where the complaint of playing politics comes in is that soldiers and many Conservatives believe that the LPC so disregards the feelings of its military personnel that they will try to ram through a motion like this, to the protests and objections of the military but believing unknowing civilian voters won't understand the military's objections and will still see it as a good thing.

So this is what it boils down to:

Conservatives wanted to stop new flag custom to honour request by military.

Liberals feel that the military does not adequately understand its culture or traditions and that in fact lowering the flag on every death is a better custom then what military tradition is accustomed to.

Soldiers feel that the opposition parties don't give a hoot about them and are doing this solely for political expediency as the Canadian public knows virtually nothing about its military and to the uneducated this sounds like a good idea.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:03 am
 


Grainfedprarieboy Grainfedprarieboy:
There is an actual protocol to lower the flag but it has been circumnavigated by a recent custom formulated under Paul Martin and carried through Chretien and finally Harper. The Liberals wanted to make it a firm policy to ostensibly honour soldiers even though soldiers told them it is more of a disgrace then an honour.


Formulated under Martin and carried through Chretien?

Other way around don't you mean?

Regardless, it has already been established that the change in flag protocol was through a bill put forth by a CPC and supported by all yet nary a word is said over the culpability of the CPC.

The motion also wants to honour Canadian dignitaries killed abroad in the service of their country. Perhaps they should have simply left the military deaths off that bill but then you guys would be posting about how they care only for "their fallen buddies" and nothing about the military.

Lose - lose for them. Its always lose - lose for the Liberals when the military is concerned. No matter what they do they are vilified for it so its impossible for them to ever actually know when they are doing something wrong because the military attacks whatever they do.

Grainfedprarieboy Grainfedprarieboy:
Where the complaint of playing politics comes in is that soldiers and many Conservatives believe that the LPC so disregards the feelings of its military personnel that they will try to ram through a motion like this, to the protests and objections of the military but believing unknowing civilian voters won't understand the military's objections and will still see it as a good thing.


Bollocks. They have gotten so much bad press over it that I wonder why they even bother trying to show respect for people who won't show them any. They certainly aren't under the illusion that they will win any political support over this because according to you guys anybody who supports them already hates the military and anybody who loves the military already (and irreversibly) hates the Liberals.

I think the truth is that most conservatives and most Liberal hating military want the Liberals to hate the military. They hate them and don't ever want to have to admit that the Liberals did something right for the military.

Thats entirely why an almost identical amount of money put in by Martin and Harper got entirely different reactions. With Martin it was "too little, too late and with Harper it was "he likes us, he really really likes us".

Grainfedprarieboy Grainfedprarieboy:
Conservatives wanted to stop new flag custom to honour request by military.

Liberals feel that the military does not adequately understand its culture or traditions and that in fact lowering the flag on every death is a better custom then what military tradition is accustomed to.

Soldiers feel that the opposition parties don't give a hoot about them and are doing this solely for political expediency as the Canadian public knows virtually nothing about its military and to the uneducated this sounds like a good idea.


Or that the cons just don't want to be bothered putting in a little extra effort.

Quite frankly the more I hear about the military saying only the CPC cares about them the more I actually want the Liberals and NDP to actually make it happen.

My friend used to have a girlfriend that pulled the old "you just don't love me trick" on him all the time. Every time she didn't get her way thats what she would say. We didn't even bother the old "wa-tosh" whip snap thing because it was just so sad but he was in love. Then one day he wasn't. Almost a light switch type effect. I finally asked him what happened. He said that she said "you just don't love me" until one day it simply became true.

Thats entirely what I see here. I don't like this flag motion and feel its wrong but neither do I believe its been done by people who hate the military and care nothing for its traditions. (Note: I will point out that the same people who say respect military tradition are the same ones trying to dismantle Canadian political traditions for their own purposes).

Keep saying the Libs and NDP "hate" the military and one day you will wake up and it will be true.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:26 am
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
I don't like this flag motion and feel its wrong but neither do I believe its been done by people who hate the military and care nothing for its traditions. (Note: I will point out that the same people who say respect military tradition are the same ones trying to dismantle Canadian political traditions for their own purposes).


There will be no gods before them Derb, you know that.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:36 am
 


Derby, I'm confused. Are you sayong the Tories initiated this whole flag nonsense?

From the CBC, 24th April 2006:

$1:
"For more than 80 years Canada honoured its war dead by lowering flags on federal buildings on Remembrance Day. But former prime minister Jean Chrétien changed that in April 2002. When four Canadian soldiers were killed by U.S. bombs in Afghanistan, the flag on the Peace Tower was lowered to half-mast."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/04/ ... 60424.html


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:53 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Derby, I'm confused. Are you sayong the Tories initiated this whole flag nonsense?

From the CBC, 24th April 2006:

$1:
"For more than 80 years Canada honoured its war dead by lowering flags on federal buildings on Remembrance Day. But former prime minister Jean Chrétien changed that in April 2002. When four Canadian soldiers were killed by U.S. bombs in Afghanistan, the flag on the Peace Tower was lowered to half-mast."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/04/ ... 60424.html


Still the blame game!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:29 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Derby, I'm confused. Are you sayong the Tories initiated this whole flag nonsense?

From the CBC, 24th April 2006:

$1:
"For more than 80 years Canada honoured its war dead by lowering flags on federal buildings on Remembrance Day. But former prime minister Jean Chrétien changed that in April 2002. When four Canadian soldiers were killed by U.S. bombs in Afghanistan, the flag on the Peace Tower was lowered to half-mast."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/04/ ... 60424.html


They initiated the partisan BS behind it. Read Bootleggas post on page 2. There is also another marathon thread where we all dealt with this that most have apparently forgotten. They used political parlimentary procedures to make themselves look like the military caring party. They played the partisan games and yet they were rewarded and the Liberals vilified. They cried to have the flag lowered to win themselves points then "went with tradition" when it suited them in order to win more points.

If you recall back when the 4 soldiers dies it was a great shock to the nation that hadn't experienced anything like it in decades and all eyes were on Chretien and the Liberals to do something.

Another case of lose - lose. The opposition was using the deaths as political attack points to claim the same tired old nonsense that the Liberals hated the military. They had to do something. Even if they had made a statement about the Nov 11th tradition there is not one doubt in my mind it would have been accepted as anything other then "Well, they obviously don't care enough to make the effort".

Even you said that the Liberals "never had much use for the flag protocol" to which I responded "So the Liberals adhering to it faithfully for all the years prior meant nothing".

Its Afghanistan visits all over again. No matter what happens the Liberals are vilified.

If they act --- they hate tradition.
If they do nothing --- They never cared in the first place.

I think the truth is that they don't believe we will suffer the tens of thousands of casualties that would make lowering the flag per death unfeasible and that the low rate of deaths means its possible for a more personal showing.

It was said that Harper did away with the per death flag lowering not for any reasons of traditions but for the same reason bush doesn't want flag draped coffins on display, an attempt to distract the public from the human cost.

Regardless, it is nothing but the worst partisan BS that sees every possible Liberal involvement with the military as nothing but cheap politics.

Thats no different then saying that everybody who joins the military is a warmongering thrill-kill junkie.

The CPC is playing the same political game as the Liberals did and plenty of Liberal MPs actually care about Canada having a decently equiped military.

Martin certainly did.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:32 pm
 


I'm not getting all partisan on it, I just remember it was Chretien who changed the protocol.

I agree that at the time, to the unknowledgeable on protocol, it seemed like the right thing to do, but it flew in the face of accepted protocol.

Whatever Harper said in Opposition (and I have no doubt that silly things were bandied around in the House), he reverted the Peace Tower Flag back to protocol.

We should all remember that the Peace Tower was built to remember those who fell in the Great War.
If you pay a visit you will find books of remembrance in the Tower, commemorating Canadian soldiers/sailors/airmen + women who have given their lives for this country.

The flag on the Peace Tower should stand fast to the protocol and the reasons for which it was built.

That includes the various days its lowered now (Police Officers memorial, Women’s Day of Action etc), it should only be lowered on Remembrance Day.

Just my view on it!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:49 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I'm not getting all partisan on it, I just remember it was Chretien who changed the protocol.

I agree that at the time, to the unknowledgeable on protocol, it seemed like the right thing to do, but it flew in the face of accepted protocol.

Whatever Harper said in Opposition (and I have no doubt that silly things were bandied around in the House), he reverted the Peace Tower Flag back to protocol.

We should all remember that the Peace Tower was built to remember those who fell in the Great War.
If you pay a visit you will find books of remembrance in the Tower, commemorating Canadian soldiers/sailors/airmen + women who have given their lives for this country.

The flag on the Peace Tower should stand fast to the protocol and the reasons for which it was built.

That includes the various days its lowered now (Police Officers memorial, Women’s Day of Action etc), it should only be lowered on Remembrance Day.

Just my view on it!


I have. You know my background. I've stood on Juno Beach, visited Vimy, and have even been to a death camp.

I have no problem with the military wanting this tradition respected so long as they also respect the traditions of others.

My problem is the complete one-sidedness that lays all blame (as always) at the feet of the Liberals without any thought as to why things happened.

You are well aware of the unbelievably hypocritical stance that sees every single Liberal (and NDP) visit as the worst in photo ops at the same time as the volume of complaints about how the Liberals never visited. The same thing happened here.

In the end I think the worst damage to the military is being done by themselves. I have to struggle to find reasons why the Liberals shouldn't just say "to hell with it" and simply gutted the military and all the money it was going to put into it in favour of simply a massive tax cut or healthcare spending spree.

If the military won't support the Liberals in any way shape or from then why should they ever expect anything but the most minimal (and both Chretien and Martin went beyond that when our finances were better) funding.

Its so counterproductive I almost believe that they don't really ever want the funding.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:50 pm
 


Like the Canadian and Quebec flags, a lot of symbols on national flags are made of three parts. What is very important is not that the flag fly high; it is that the middle part of the three-part symbol stays up-right. The middle part symbolizes a penis and the side parts the testicles.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:54 pm
 


Benoit Benoit:
Like the Canadian and Quebec flags, a lot of symbols on national flags are made of three parts. What is very important is not that the flag fly high; it is that the middle part of the three-part symbol stays up-right. The middle part symbolizes a penis and the side parts the testicles.


As charming as your fascination with male genitalia is to all of us....
If you believe nothing, feel nothing, do nothing, serve nothing, then say nothing


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:58 pm
 


Benoit Benoit:
Like the Canadian and Quebec flags, a lot of symbols on national flags are made of three parts. What is very important is not that the flag fly high; it is that the middle part of the three-part symbol stays up-right. The middle part symbolizes a penis and the side parts the testicles.


I'm not sure what your problem is.

Its either not enough crack or too much crack.

Whatever it is do the opposite.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:01 pm
 


DerbyX DerbyX:
Benoit Benoit:
Like the Canadian and Quebec flags, a lot of symbols on national flags are made of three parts. What is very important is not that the flag fly high; it is that the middle part of the three-part symbol stays up-right. The middle part symbolizes a penis and the side parts the testicles.


I'm not sure what your problem is.

Its either not enough crack or too much crack.

Whatever it is do the opposite.


:!:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:23 pm
 


Derby:

The LPC is well aware of the feelings of the military regarding the flag issue but believe that since Canadians generally support the idea they should pursue it and thus the accusations of political expediency.

You may feel the LPC is damned if they do or don't but the fact of the matter is under the past 10 years of Liberal rule the military saw its budget drastically slashed and it's regiments and culture openly attacked and moral drop to the lowest levels in living memory.

Soldiers do not want to go through another dark period where the government they serve is openly hostile to them.


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