[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

commanderkai commanderkai:

The truce ended when the first rockets from Gaza hit Israel. The fact that the Israelis waited this long to strike back just shows the level of patience the Israeli government has shown.

Concur.

Suggest a solution?

I would honestly be interested in your solution.

Well let's look at what isn't a solution. Israel pulling out of Gaza wasn't a solution. Letting Hamas lob rockets into Israel wasn't a solution.

I want to know what's going on in the West Bank. I know the media seems to forget about Israel while Hamas launches rockets, and only pays attention when Israel retaliates, but I haven't heard much about Israel or the West Bank for a while.

So far, all I've seen from you is some highly strange statements, like I was dismissing civilian deaths.

[Gunnair]

hwacker hwacker:

Gunnair Gunnair:

hwacker hwacker:

I bet I do, 20 minutes drive. it will be fun.

Post pictures...

I don't think i'll have to, the red star should be there as well.

Knew you didn't have the parts...

[martin14]

Right now, just some protestes in the streets in the West Bank..
nothing too serious.

Hamas is calling for another intefada, wonder if the West Bank
Palestinians will be smart for a change and say no thanks.

BS from the UN as usual.. nothing new.

[commanderkai]

martin14 martin14:

Right now, just some protestes in the streets in the West Bank..
nothing too serious.

Hamas is calling for another intefada, wonder if the West Bank
Palestinians will be smart for a change and say no thanks.

BS from the UN as usual.. nothing new.

That's a good point I forgot Martin. The United Nations commonly has had a hard on for Israel for a good time now. As much as we Canadians might have some happy image of the UN, the Israeli government does not, especially with the actions of some peacekeepers in Lebanon and UN agencies in the territories.

You can't just tell Israel to accept a peacekeeping force because they won't. I think they'd rather accept a US/NATO force.

[martin14]

umm, there is no peace to keep in Gaza right now, hasnt been for a couple of years.

First, the rockets going into Isreal has to stop, and no one has been able to do that.

The Isrealis cant, occupying Gaza or not.
The PA can't.
Egypt can't.
Hamas won't.

So, see the first problem that has to be solved ?

[EyeBrock]

The followers of the 'religion of peace' strike again.

[commanderkai]

martin14 martin14:

umm, there is no peace to keep in Gaza right now, hasnt been for a couple of years.

First, the rockets going into Isreal has to stop, and no one has been able to do that.

The Isrealis cant, occupying Gaza or not.
The PA can't.
Egypt can't.
Hamas won't.

So, see the first problem that has to be solved ?

Oh I totally agree with you. It's just the solution I've heard here and there about putting peacekeepers into Gaza or something. Sorry I just wanted to give you credit for making me remember that.

[DerbyX]

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

It's easy to ascribe meaning to another's words, then agree with them. But that doesn't make you right.

Eyebrock said nothing about "consolidating our borders." You made that up, and ascribed it to him.

Canada is a warrior nation Derby. We're fighting and winning in Afghanistan. It's not a Liberal thing. That party missed out on the moral high ground behind this war by challenging it after committing soldiers.

Just deal with it.

A warrior nation? We are a nation of peace first and foremost. Its entirely why we have managed to live at peace for most of our history.

We aren't winning. Year after year the violence gets worse and the conditions of the average person there doesn't improve in the least.

We won't be able to bring peace to people who aren't interested in peace and the history of the region waging a never ending war against invaders will prove that.

Deal with those facts.

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Well, I'd say the synopsis to my post would be "Peacekeeping was a convenient myth and looks good on the $10 bill."

If the military isn't interested in being peacekeepers then fine. We shouldn't use them. We should train a specific force just for that task.

The problem is you say people join the military to "kick arse" and being peacekeepers isn't "kicking arse".

We don't need people who think like that to go out and drum up buisness. We don't invent reasosns for them to "kick arse" and if Canada isn't being threatened by a foreign army then we don't make one up.

Thats not "kicking arse". Thats being despots.

I don't expect firemen to go out and start fires because the joined up to fight them if there aren't any.

I don't expect cops to go out and cause crime to justify their position.

I certainly don't expect people who join the army to "kick arse" to find a reason to do just that.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Well let's look at what isn't a solution. Israel pulling out of Gaza wasn't a solution. Letting Hamas lob rockets into Israel wasn't a solution.

I want to know what's going on in the West Bank. I know the media seems to forget about Israel while Hamas launches rockets, and only pays attention when Israel retaliates, but I haven't heard much about Israel or the West Bank for a while.

So far, all I've seen from you is some highly strange statements, like I was dismissing civilian deaths.

Funny but I read reports about hamas launching rockets all the time. I must not be part of the great liberal media conspiracy though.

If you were paying attention you'll note that the constant cycle of violence is what I was attempting to address by using peacekeepers before to usual cries of "the military isn't a peacekeeping force".

The entire idea is to provide a benign force that will keep hamas (or any other group for that matter) from launching attacks into israel. A force that will provide security to both sides and allowing palestinians to rebuild their society and actually build things that they have a vested interest in not seeing destroyed mere days after construction.

Its not about assigning blame to one side and carrying out revenge attacks which just renew the whole cycle of violence. Its about helping people get past the hate and hopefully brining up a whole generation of people who think like that.

[Gunnair]

DerbyX DerbyX:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Well, I'd say the synopsis to my post would be "Peacekeeping was a convenient myth and looks good on the $10 bill."

If the military isn't interested in being peacekeepers then fine. We shouldn't use them. We should train a specific force just for that task.

The problem is you say people join the military to "kick arse" and being peacekeepers isn't "kicking arse".

We don't need people who think like that to go out and drum up buisness. We don't invent reasosns for them to "kick arse" and if Canada isn't being threatened by a foreign army then we don't make one up.

Thats not "kicking arse". Thats being despots.

I don't expect firemen to go out and start fires because the joined up to fight them if there aren't any.

I don't expect cops to go out and cause crime to justify their position.

I certainly don't expect people who join the army to "kick arse" to find a reason to do just that.

The military has never gone out to drum up business as you should well know. They are a tactical and strategic tool employed by political masters with little control over their destiny. The can be fed, starved, ignored, or lauded and employed to do a whole host of duties which include everything from warfighting to delivering sandbags.

Military members do not need to find a reason to kick ass - they joined because they know there will eventually be a need in our rather screwed up world to kick ass in order in order to preserve peace in Canada and with our allies.

Being the son of a military member should have taught you that.

[DerbyX]

Gunnair Gunnair:

The military has never gone out to drum up business as you should well know. They are a tactical and strategic tool employed by political masters with little control over their destiny. The can be fed, starved, ignored, or lauded and employed to do a whole host of duties which include everything from warfighting to delivering sandbags.

Military members do not need to find a reason to kick ass - they joined because they know there will eventually be a need in our rather screwed up world to kick ass in order in order to preserve peace in Canada and with our allies.

Being the son of a military member should have taught you that.

Except that is entirely what we are being told by them. We shouldn't be using them to deliver sandbags or dig people out of snowstorms.

We shouldn't be using them for reasons such as is for peacekeeping scenarios. Thats exactly what the military is telling us. They are trained to fight wars right. They are designed to defend our country and its borders first and foremost right.

The problem is that Canada isn't being threatened by a foreign army and neither are any of our NATO allies. Conflict with the USSR and/or Warsaw pact forces was confined entirely to video games.

Going into foreign countries with the idea of using military force to attack people who aren't an actual threat to Canada is not using the military for its intended for.

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

StuntmanMike StuntmanMike:

It's easy to ascribe meaning to another's words, then agree with them. But that doesn't make you right.

Eyebrock said nothing about "consolidating our borders." You made that up, and ascribed it to him.

Canada is a warrior nation Derby. We're fighting and winning in Afghanistan. It's not a Liberal thing. That party missed out on the moral high ground behind this war by challenging it after committing soldiers.

Just deal with it.

A warrior nation? We are a nation of peace first and foremost. Its entirely why we have managed to live at peace for most of our history.

We aren't winning. Year after year the violence gets worse and the conditions of the average person there doesn't improve in the least.

We won't be able to bring peace to people who aren't interested in peace and the history of the region waging a never ending war against invaders will prove that.

Deal with those facts.

A nation of peace? We grew out of wars. Quebec from the Seven Years War and the Anglo bits from the Revolutionary War.

Does 1812 ring a bell? How about the 1837 Rebellions? Even Confederation was impacted by the US Civil War and the Fenian Raids. Bad guys with guns

Then there's Reil's chaps, the Boer War, the Great War, the Second World War, Korea.

That enough war for you? Canadians have historically been involved in fighting. This 'tradition' of peacekeeping comes out of Suez and Pearson. Even then we have contributed way less to UN missions than Bangladesh.

You need to stop swallowing the peacekeeping propaganda and look at actual history mate.
We were and are first and foremost a warrior nation.
Our guys in Afghanistan are warriors.
The history is there for all to read.

Why does this warrior stuff gall you so much?
What is so noble about wankers like Dallaire who were bureaucrats in uniform and not real leaders?
I really can’t understand this culture and myth of the ‘holy Canadian peacekeeper’.

Name me a recent UN mission that involved Canadian troops in a high profile situation that would stir the nation’s pride?

[Gunnair]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Gunnair Gunnair:

The military has never gone out to drum up business as you should well know. They are a tactical and strategic tool employed by political masters with little control over their destiny. The can be fed, starved, ignored, or lauded and employed to do a whole host of duties which include everything from warfighting to delivering sandbags.

Military members do not need to find a reason to kick ass - they joined because they know there will eventually be a need in our rather screwed up world to kick ass in order in order to preserve peace in Canada and with our allies.

Being the son of a military member should have taught you that.

Except that is entirely what we are being told by them. We shouldn't be using them to deliver sandbags or dig people out of snowstorms.

We shouldn't be using them for reasons such as is for peacekeeping scenarios. Thats exactly what the military is telling us. They are trained to fight wars right. They are designed to defend our country and its borders first and foremost right.

The problem is that Canada isn't being threatened by a foreign army and neither are any of our NATO allies. Conflict with the USSR and/or Warsaw pact forces was confined entirely to video games.

Going into foreign countries with the idea of using military force to attack people who aren't an actual threat to Canada is not using the military for its intended for.

I have yet to hear anyone in the military complain about being used for non-military purposes (save for Toronto because that was ridiculous). Winnipeg and the ice storm were perfect examples of when the logistical and organizational abilities of the military are at their best.

As for peacekeeping - the problem with that is that the military was placed into scenarios where peacekeeping was not really an option - see Somalia and Rwanda. Even former Yugoslavia had a lot of issues becuase peacekeeping ROE hamstrung members to a dangerous level. That has, of course, soured the military - that and the fact that peacekeeping was a way for the government to employ the military on the cheap. Don't need tanks, new ships, new planes for low level work such as peacekeeping.

$1:

Going into foreign countries with the idea of using military force to attack people who aren't an actual threat to Canada is not using the military for its intended for.

Honestly now, what is your criteria then? Anglo-Boer War, WWI, WWII, Korea - none of these would have had Canadian participation if we followed that creed. Would you rather Canadians were isolationists or would you rather scrap the military in favour of a unified continental defence under the US?

As someone with a lot of interest in politics, you above all should know that the Canadian military, amongst its many roles is a symbol of Canadian independence from the US - the ability to defend ourselves being a very important marker. As well, the military is an international political tool for pushing Canadian interests abroad - not in a military way, of course, but Canada cannot be an international player if it ain't going to contribute to the hard jobs out there.

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

A nation of peace? We grew out of wars. Quebec from the Seven Years War and the Anglo bits from the Revolutionary War.

Does 1812 ring a bell? How about the 1837 Rebellions? Even Confederation was impacted by the US Civil War and the Fenian Raids. Bad guys with guns

Then there's Reil's chaps, the Boer War, the Great War, the Second World War, Korea.

That enough war for you? Canadians have historically been involved in fighting. This 'tradition' of peacekeeping comes out of Suez and Pearson. Even then we have contributed way less to UN missions than Bangladesh.

You need to stop swallowing the peacekeeping propaganda and look at actual history mate.
We were and are first and foremost a warrior nation.
Our guys in Afghanistan are warriors.
The history is there for all to read.

Why does this warrior stuff gall you so much?
What is so noble about wankers like Dallaire who were bureaucrats in uniform and not real leaders?
I really can’t understand this culture and myth of the ‘holy Canadian peacekeeper’.

Name me a recent UN mission that involved Canadian troops in a high profile situation that would stir the nation’s pride?

That we have fought wars does not mean we are a warrior nation. If thats true then just about every nation on earth is a warrior nation.

I don't object to warrior stuff. I object to the mentality that we need to go looking for trouble.