[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

And ok andyt so now you want me to believe that there were two seperate events where life spontaneously evolved, not just one? One for plants and one for animals? And at two distinctly different times?

Well I believe, along with Biology, who knows how many times life arose from non-living matter. But it need have done so only once. The first unicellular prokaryotes would have been plant-like. From those, evolved organisms that lost the ablitity to create complex nutrients from simple chemicals and an energy source, and instead were reliant on the already existing "plants". Ne need for life to arise twice.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

andyt andyt:

By your argument, he got that ball rolling as far as creating fully formed eyes and the creatures that have them. That's quite a bit of ball rolling. If eyes can't evolve from light sensing organs, but need to be arise fully formed, that's not God getting the ball rolling, that's God seeding the earth with extant species. He's one busy mofo that guy.

I imagine his schedule is a bitch.

andyt andyt:

As for planetary conditions, we are finding more and more earth-like planets - there's so many out there, there are probably others with life on them as well.

So far, not ONE earth-like planet has been positively identified.

andyt andyt:

If God created everything, why did he create leukemia for little children? Why does he have 4000 children a day die from having only polluted water to drink?

Perfection is boring. If the world was risk-free we'd surely take it for granted. I figure God is like a pit boss; he set up the craps table but we get to throw the dice.

And God does not let 4,000 children die every day from unhealthy water.

We do.

OK,. the water example is a moot point. But leukemia is not - we're not throwing the dice, he is. Same with say, birth defects.

But you're ignoring the logic of your argument. If you say eyes have to arise fully formed, can't evolve, that means the species that has those eyes also has to arise fully formed. Ie you are denying any evolution, which means that God is continually dropping new species from the sky.

As for the planets - yes, you have an out for now. But as our technology improves, who knows. There are certainly enough planets in the universe for your statistical argument to be invalid.

[BartSimpson]

I'm not denying evolution. Far from it. I'm one of those few Christians who will say that evolution is an ongoing process. It happens all the time just like the sun rising and setting.

I don't *say* that eyes have to arise fully formed. Not at all. But how does an eye "evolve" from a transitory and arguably useless organ? Natural selection is predicated against such things.

Also, I'm just saying that we have not found any earth-like planets so far. I hope we do find some and it'd be flippin' awesome if it happened in my lifetime.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I'm not denying evolution. Far from it. I'm one of those few Christians who will say that evolution is an ongoing process. It happens all the time just like the sun rising and setting.

I don't *say* that eyes have to arise fully formed. Not at all. But how does an eye "evolve" from a transitory and arguably useless organ? Natural selection is predicated against such things.

Also, I'm just saying that we have not found any earth-like planets so far. I hope we do find some and it'd be flippin' awesome if it happened in my lifetime.

I read a good refutation of your eye argument, but forget the gist of it, and don't have a link. The eye thing is popular with the creationists, but as far as I know has been well refuted by the evolutionists. How is an light sensitive organ (ie eye precursor) useless, (or for that matter transitory - many species still think they're just swell.)? But if you say that eyes can't evolve, you are saying they must arise fully formed. That means the species that uses that eye must also have arisen fully formed. You're denying the possibility of evolution here.


Me, I have my feet in both camps. I'm not a materialist/atheist, but I do think materialist science is bang on in it's limited field of understanding. (Always subject to change as new info comes in of course). The place were objective science seems to run out of steam is in quantum physics. Here's a link to a paper published in Nature that says mind creates matter http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/clearer.light.pdf He's certainly not the only one to say so. The physicists who are willing to go there are not willing to say what it means. I think it means there is a cosmic intelligence that makes up the universe. This Mind is beyond our comprehension, so Mind moves in mysterious ways. So who knows.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

As for planetary conditions, we are finding more and more earth-like planets - there's so many out there, there are probably others with life on them as well.

Well, once they can actually confirm the existence of any plate techtonics on those "Earth-like planets", I'll start getting excited about the possibility of life on those planets. Whether it still exists or it ever got beyond simple forms is a different story.
I bring up plate techtonics for a reason. Believe it or not, earthquakes are a necessity for a planet to support life. The earthquakes we have on Earth release thousands of tons(or more) of atmoshpheric gases that were frozen in the rock for millions of years. Earthquakes actually help to replenish the atmosphere.
As for why does God let bad things happen to good or innocent people? I can't answer that, I'm not his lawyer
One stat I saw that surprised me though was, roughly 40% of scientists in this field of study believe that God created life on Earth and then let nature take its course.

[poquas]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

poquas poquas:

Yes, I have serious issues with fundamentalist religious zealots of any kind that push their beliefs on everyone else.

Conversely, I have problems with anti-religious zealots who evangelize their atheism to religious people. If you really don't believe in anything why do you care so much? It really impresses me the faith of the atheists who dedicate their lives to fighting something they say doesn't exist.

I don't believe in the Easter Bunny but I don't go trolling people who do in order to accomplish some meaningless point.

poquas poquas:

You believe? Your problem(s). Kindly keep it to yourself.

You don't have to listen or respond. But if I have a personal belief and someone asks about it, I'll speak to it and you get to suck it up the same way I suck it up when you speak to what you believe.

$1:

…and my holidays don’t require following religious dogma.

Cool. So you work Christmas and Boxing Day without overtime because you stand on your principles?

Funny, I've always held to my medical oath and have never been paid overtime, even on Easter. Can you say the same?

You push your faith as fact and denigrate anyone who has different ideas about faiths that are different than yours. I expect the same of any religious idiocy. Islam, Judaism, or the thousand screwball forms of Christianity. If you’re weak enough to require some form of crutch to face the world, do so in quiet.

My distaste of your religious preaching isn’t so much the fact you say it, but that some other poor weak minded person might throw common sense to the wind and be unwittingly brainwashed. I’ve had to deal with enough weak minded people in my career that were so afraid to question anything of the various faiths they were indoctrinated into that it became impossible to think about anything independently for fear of supernatural retribution. The number of times in this thread that you’ve repeatedly held up the bible as an historical document has me wondering if you couldn’t use a little help too.

[2Cdo]

poquas poquas:

You push your faith as fact and denigrate anyone who has different ideas about faiths that are different than yours.

Something you are also guilty of in this thread.

$1:

I expect the same of any religious idiocy. Islam, Judaism, or the thousand screwball forms of Christianity. If you’re weak enough to require some form of crutch to face the world, do so in quiet.

Your anti-religious posts reek of the same fanaticism you accuse others of.

$1:

My distaste of your religious preaching isn’t so much the fact you say it, but that some other poor weak minded person might throw common sense to the wind and be unwittingly brainwashed. I’ve had to deal with enough weak minded people in my career that were so afraid to question anything of the various faiths they were indoctrinated into that it became impossible to think about anything independently for fear of supernatural retribution. The number of times in this thread that you’ve repeatedly held up the bible as an historical document has me wondering if you couldn’t use a little help too.

An awful lot of hate for someone who claims to work in the medical field. You must be a joy around any patients who are religious.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

andyt andyt:

As for planetary conditions, we are finding more and more earth-like planets - there's so many out there, there are probably others with life on them as well.

Well, once they can actually confirm the existence of any plate techtonics on those "Earth-like planets", I'll start getting excited about the possibility of life on those planets. Whether it still exists or it ever got beyond simple forms is a different story.
I bring up plate techtonics for a reason. Believe it or not, earthquakes are a necessity for a planet to support life. The earthquakes we have on Earth release thousands of tons(or more) of atmoshpheric gases that were frozen in the rock for millions of years. Earthquakes actually help to replenish the atmosphere.
As for why does God let bad things happen to good or innocent people? I can't answer that, I'm not his lawyer
One stat I saw that surprised me though was, roughly 40% of scientists in this field of study believe that God created life on Earth and then let nature take its course.

Every reason to suppose that if other planets are earth like, or really just hospitable to life formation, they will have the right conditions. If plate tectonics operate on earth, due to the elemental composition of it, they why wouldn't they on another plant with a similar elemental mix.

As for this I'm not God's lawyer stuff, I know you put a smiley, but c'mon. Christian protagonists will state all sorts of things they know about God, but ask them an uncomfortable question, and they retreat behind this canard. It comes up all the time when I ask a fundy why a loving God would condemn the majority of humans to ever lasting torment after death because they did not accept YbJ (JC to the believers) while alive. Why would a loving God condemn any person to everlasting torment? I mean he is omniscient, he knew say Clifford Olson would do those horrible things to those kids, and those kids would die in terror. Why did He allow that? And if he can't predict the future, why did he allow a craps game that had that outcome as a possibility?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

I'll also say there is plenty of evidence to support simple adaptation, which many like to call evolution. The problem is, there is not one, not ONE labratory example of anything ever spontaneously generating de novo genetic information.
Now, let's get back to Noah's Ark and the whole misinterpretation of events there.
The unbelievers like to point out the impossibility of building an ark large enough to accomodate 2 of every species on earth, never mind the mind boggling task of wrangling them. Well, if you go from a believe in God perspective, if God can make all of this, then anything is possible. But that would seem to be too glib an explanation without really explaining.
Simple answer: perspective. The flood involved the KNOWN world at the time, which to those people, would be the whole world. Not sure how hard it would be to wrangle up a pair of camels, donkeys, goats, birds and some insects. Wouldn't really need a boat as big as some in here have painted either.

[poquas]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

poquas poquas:

You push your faith as fact and denigrate anyone who has different ideas about faiths that are different than yours.

Something you are also guilty of in this thread.

$1:

I expect the same of any religious idiocy. Islam, Judaism, or the thousand screwball forms of Christianity. If you’re weak enough to require some form of crutch to face the world, do so in quiet.

Your anti-religious posts reek of the same fanaticism you accuse others of.

$1:

My distaste of your religious preaching isn’t so much the fact you say it, but that some other poor weak minded person might throw common sense to the wind and be unwittingly brainwashed. I’ve had to deal with enough weak minded people in my career that were so afraid to question anything of the various faiths they were indoctrinated into that it became impossible to think about anything independently for fear of supernatural retribution. The number of times in this thread that you’ve repeatedly held up the bible as an historical document has me wondering if you couldn’t use a little help too.

An awful lot of hate for someone who claims to work in the medical field. You must be a joy around any patients who are religious.

Good for you Bart. You got one!

[2Cdo]

poquas poquas:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

poquas poquas:

You push your faith as fact and denigrate anyone who has different ideas about faiths that are different than yours.

Something you are also guilty of in this thread.

$1:

I expect the same of any religious idiocy. Islam, Judaism, or the thousand screwball forms of Christianity. If you’re weak enough to require some form of crutch to face the world, do so in quiet.

Your anti-religious posts reek of the same fanaticism you accuse others of.

$1:

My distaste of your religious preaching isn’t so much the fact you say it, but that some other poor weak minded person might throw common sense to the wind and be unwittingly brainwashed. I’ve had to deal with enough weak minded people in my career that were so afraid to question anything of the various faiths they were indoctrinated into that it became impossible to think about anything independently for fear of supernatural retribution. The number of times in this thread that you’ve repeatedly held up the bible as an historical document has me wondering if you couldn’t use a little help too.

An awful lot of hate for someone who claims to work in the medical field. You must be a joy around any patients who are religious.

Good for you Bart. You got one!

Sorry sunshine, but I'm not particularly religious. I just don't trust pompous hypocrites who reek of the same fanaticism they accuse others of.

[andyt]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

I'll also say there is plenty of evidence to support simple adaptation, which many like to call evolution. The problem is, there is not one, not ONE labratory example of anything ever spontaneously generating de novo genetic information.
Now, let's get back to Noah's Ark and the whole misinterpretation of events there.
The unbelievers like to point out the impossibility of building an ark large enough to accomodate 2 of every species on earth, never mind the mind boggling task of wrangling them. Well, if you go from a believe in God perspective, if God can make all of this, then anything is possible. But that would seem to be too glib an explanation without really explaining.
Simple answer: perspective. The flood involved the KNOWN world at the time, which to those people, would be the whole world. Not sure how hard it would be to wrangle up a pair of camels, donkeys, goats, birds and some insects. Wouldn't really need a boat as big as some in here have painted either.

Exactly - it involved the known world, and likely not even that, but is at root only the story of a small group of people and their domestic animals escaping a local flood. This story has been repeated numerous times around the planet.

But that's got nothing to do with God punishing the wicked and wiping out humnaity, only to save the one honest man. That's the story the bible tells.

As for God can do anything - by definition he can. Funny how he seems to do it in spurts tho, where in the present things basically go according to a scientific view of how things work, and then at times in the past (always in the past) God steps in and makes a miracle. If I see a big hand coming from the sky to place a new species on the earth, then I'll beleive.

[BartSimpson]

poquas poquas:

Funny, I've always held to my medical oath and have never been paid overtime, even on Easter. Can you say the same?

Considering that Easter is a valid holiday for me why would I want to work on that day and then, if entitled to overtime, why wouldn't I take it?

poquas poquas:

You push your faith as fact and denigrate anyone who has different ideas about faiths that are different than yours. I expect the same of any religious idiocy. Islam, Judaism, or the thousand screwball forms of Christianity. If you’re weak enough to require some form of crutch to face the world, do so in quiet.

Where am I pushing my faith as fact? My faith is *faith*.

poquas poquas:

My distaste of your religious preaching isn’t so much the fact you say it, but that some other poor weak minded person might throw common sense to the wind and be unwittingly brainwashed. I’ve had to deal with enough weak minded people in my career that were so afraid to question anything of the various faiths they were indoctrinated into that it became impossible to think about anything independently for fear of supernatural retribution. The number of times in this thread that you’ve repeatedly held up the bible as an historical document has me wondering if you couldn’t use a little help too.

The Bible is an historical document. But an historical document written in the worldview of its time. No more or less than any of the works of Aristotle or Plato were works of their times. What the hell is your damage with this idea? You don't have to believe in anything to accept that the Bible is also a (admittedly biased) historic account of events in the ME.
The Koran is an historic book and saying so doesn't mean I'm going to pray to a meteorite. The Baghvad Gita is, too. So what? Are you following me here?
It seems you're so caught up in hating religion that you can't appreciate when a religious person also embraces pratcical and rational understanding.

[poquas]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The Bible is an historical document.

Wow!

All that and we’ve just gone full circle.

YOUR faith may consider the bible an historical document, however anyone capable of reasoned, objective, rational thinking does not. It’s a made of a few components (as determined by biases of men through the ages) of many more documents to justify the dogma of the religion it purports to represent.

Then to demonstrate your own hypocrisy, you tell me you’d take the overtime you criticized me believing I’d receive, but never did.

Forget it Bart. I don’t need to make my points. You’re doing it for me.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

As for this I'm not God's lawyer stuff, I know you put a smiley, but c'mon. Christian protagonists will state all sorts of things they know about God, but ask them an uncomfortable question, and they retreat behind this canard. It comes up all the time when I ask a fundy why a loving God would condemn the majority of humans to ever lasting torment after death because they did not accept YbJ (JC to the believers) while alive. Why would a loving God condemn any person to everlasting torment? I mean he is omniscient, he knew say Clifford Olson would do those horrible things to those kids, and those kids would die in terror. Why did He allow that? And if he can't predict the future, why did he allow a craps game that had that outcome as a possibility?

I'm not hiding behind any canard. You are asking someone to explain the actions of someone else. That would be like asking to explain why anyone does anything, or doesn't do anything as the case may be. I'm just being honest because I don't pretend to have all the answers, unlike some evolutionists.
One could just as easily ask why God gives some people gifts? By that I mean an amazing talent in some field that they are born with.
And believe me, after my back was broken, more than once I asked God, "Why me?"
18 years later I have my answer. My life is right where I want it to be. I'm retired, have a beautiful, loving wife whom I love dearly, I'm happy and content, I'm a LOT more patient and understanding than I used to be.
I learned a LOT about myself after the accident and realized, man I had some SERIOUS work to do.
The accident didn't "save" me as I was already a Christian, just separated from the Church for several years at that point. It was more like a wake up call cuz my life was definitely NOT going down the right path.
And just so everyone knows the extent of my Christian beliefs so they can see exactly where I'm coming from, I believe in harmless stuff like Creation, that Jesus died for our sins, that organized religion isn't always or necessarily a good thing, and if there is such a thing as macro-evolution, it better start getting its ass busy improving the species otherwise, at the rate we're going, we're gonna evolutionize ourselves right out of existence.