[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

As i've said before, 4 big RCMP trained in such techniques would have no problem subduing him. Without resorting to the potentially lethal force they had decided to use long before they even knew the situation.

And if they tackle him to the ground, which was the other option, and he died, would that have been acceptable?

Logical error: violence was not the only option. Like I said, violence is the last option, not the first.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Even in Poland they would attempt to find an English speaker before laying the beat down on a guy who had been in a restriced area for many hours.

And, no had he lived it would be less of an issue. Not a non-issue. Violence is the last resort, not the first. Had he not died, we would never have found out that not all RCMP are Sgt. Preston, and the sometimes lie and conspire to do harm in the name of 'kicks'. And these rules governing taser use might never have to be.

Beat down? He was zapped by a taser. A taser is far from "violence" and most often, safer than a traditional take down. 99%+ of people tasered aren't injured.

Taser incidents that result in death always have an underlying cause, such as the case with Dziekanski and his heart condition and alcoholism.

Police lie all the time, we didn't need an inquiry to find out that.

Tasers can kill perfectly healthy people all the time. People trained to use tasers know this, so they can weigh the use of force vs the outcome of that force. Pre-planning to use a taser before any determination of the situation is at least manslaughter in my eyes. As it sits, the RCMP officers will at least go to trial to face perjury charges in the coming months.

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

Yet it remains a classic fall-back position for thugs, tyrants, and bullies to excuse their own unwarranted and disproportionate behaviors.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Logical error: violence was not the only option. Like I said, violence is the last option, not the first.

Sorry, I don't see tasers or traditional take downs as "violence".

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Tasers can kill perfectly healthy people all the time. People trained to use tasers know this, so they can weigh the use of force vs the outcome of that force. Pre-planning to use a taser before any determination of the situation is at least manslaughter in my eyes. As it sits, the RCMP officers will at least go to trial to face perjury charges in the coming months.

I'd like you to show me some data that tasers kill healthy people "all the time". Anything I've ever read on Tasers says completely the opposite.

If that was truly the case, we'd have dead law enforcement officers all over World due to their usage and tests on themselves.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

The only reason this man was the victim if a tragic death was due to his own behaviour.

Police don't tend to rush in and taser a guy calmly waiting for family.

They do tend to rush in when a guy is angry, waving around furniture, smashing computer equipment on the ground, throwing tables at the glass while putting others in danger.

Sorry, situations like this don't call for kid gloves. They call for a quick end to the situation.

[OnTheIce]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

Yet it remains a classic fall-back position for thugs, tyrants, and bullies to excuse their own unwarranted and disproportionate behaviors.

Seems like their actions were completely warranted, otherwise, they would have been charged accordingly.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

How do we know if we don't even try?

So you stand around for 2 hours begging a guy to stop throwing shit around? You ask him to stop. He doesn't. You subdue him. .

As i've said before, 4 big RCMP trained in such techniques would have no problem subduing him. Without resorting to the potentially lethal force they had decided to use long before they even knew the situation.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

If you or are ended up in Poland, lost in the airport, we wouldn't get angry and start throwing shit. We'd also recognize a police man or woman. We'd be looking around, asking people for help....even if we don't speak Polish.

The man was not mentally retarded. He was a tradesman, a normal working man that should have known better. It was just a tragic accident.

Had the guy lived, it would be a complete non-issue.

Even in Poland they would attempt to find an English speaker before laying the beat down on a guy who had been in a restriced area for many hours.

And, no had he lived it would be less of an issue. Not a non-issue. Violence is the last resort, not the first. Had he not died, we would never have found out that not all RCMP are Sgt. Preston, and the sometimes lie and conspire to do harm in the name of 'kicks'. And these rules governing taser use might never have to be.

I'd rep if I could!

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

Yet it remains a classic fall-back position for thugs, tyrants, and bullies to excuse their own unwarranted and disproportionate behaviors.

Seems like their actions were completely warranted, otherwise, they would have been charged accordingly.

I guess you never bothered to read the Braidwood Report then.

The inquiry concluded that the use of the Taser was NOT justified. It noted;

$1:

Mr. Braidwood found that Constable Millington and three other RCMP officers, Corporal Benjamin Monty Robinson and Constables Gerry Brian Rundel and Bill Bentley, who responded to a call of an apparently intoxicated male throwing suitcases and chairs around in the airport’s International Reception Lounge, had initially acted appropriately.

“However, within seconds the senior officer intervened in an inappropriately aggressive manner. Mr. Dziekanski turned away and picked up a stapler, at which point one of the constables deployed the conducted energy weapon against him,” said Mr. Braidwood.
He added that Mr. Dziekanski had been compliant, was not defiant or resistant, did not brandish the stapler and did not move toward any of the officers.

“I concluded that the constable was not justified in deploying the weapon, and that neither that constable nor the corporal honestly perceived that Mr. Dziekanski was intending to attack any of the officers. I also concluded that the two other constables, during their testimony before me, offered patently unbelievable after-the-fact rationalizations of their police notes and their statements to IHIT investigators.”

Based on that, it sounds like at least one of them should have been charged.

[andyt]

Right away crown counsel said the officers would not be charged, before there was even a full investigation, never mind the inquiry. After the inquiry and the outcry they had to at least backtrack a bit, but their mind was made up from day one.

[BartSimpson]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Blaming the victim for his mistreatment is also not cool.

Yet it remains a classic fall-back position for thugs, tyrants, and bullies to excuse their own unwarranted and disproportionate behaviors.

Seems like their actions were completely warranted, otherwise, they would have been charged accordingly.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Sorry, I don't see tasers or traditional take downs as "violence".

As Ghandi defined, imposing your will upon others is to do 'violence' to them. Using a weapon leaves little doubt.

Taser deaths are in the news all the time. Don't you read the news? Google helps too. You can also Google for the law enforcement officers who have been killed and physically disabled by using the weapon on themselves. Thousands of results genereated in .000001 seconds.

The rest, I agree with the others. Kid gloves were exactley what was needed. Sitting down and defusing the situation rather than increasing the tension by pulling out weapons.

andyt andyt:

Right away crown counsel said the officers would not be charged, before there was even a full investigation, never mind the inquiry. After the inquiry and the outcry they had to at least backtrack a bit, but their mind was made up from day one.

And that is why we don't trust the two institutions we should trust the most - Justice and the RCMP.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Taser deaths are in the news all the time. Don't you read the news? Google helps too. You can also Google for the law enforcement officers who have been killed and physically disabled by using the weapon on themselves. Thousands of results genereated in .000001 seconds.

Thousands of results in seconds don't support anything you claim.

Had you searched Google, you'd know that only ~20 people have ever died in Canada due to tasers

During that same period ~60 people have died in Canada after being struck by lightning.

That's how common taser deaths are.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Taser deaths are in the news all the time. Don't you read the news? Google helps too. You can also Google for the law enforcement officers who have been killed and physically disabled by using the weapon on themselves. Thousands of results genereated in .000001 seconds.

Thousands of results in seconds don't support anything you claim.

Had you searched Google, you'd know that only ~20 people have ever died in Canada due to tasers

During that same period ~60 people have died in Canada after being struck by lightning.

That's how common taser deaths are.

That's called a 'Red Herring'. How often in Canada does lightning show up at incidents of family violence?

And tasers aren't used only in Canada. Although; if you die in Canada, you die in real life just the same.

Let's do some quick Googling:

$1:

Taser International says more than 16,200 law enforcement agencies in more than 40 countries use its devices. Since early 1998, more than 543,000 Taser brand immobilizers have been sold to law enforcement agencies.

$1:

Amnesty International says that between 2001 and August 2008, 334 Americans died after Taser shocks. The stun gun was deemed to have caused or contributed to at least 50 of those deaths, Amnesty says, citing medical examiners and coroners. Most suspects were unarmed, and many were subjected to repeated or prolonged shocks, according to Amnesty.

$1:

In March 2009, the RCMP watchdog released new figures showing RCMP officers used stun guns 1,106 times in 2008, about 30 per cent less than the previous year. The numbers included incidents when officers drew Tasers from their holsters but didn't fire.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/200 ... r-faq.html

That was one single source.

Here's another:

$1:

The RCMP in B.C. is coming under fire again for the use of stun guns and restraints in the death of a Prince George man, and for the internal investigation conducted after his death.

In 2003, Clay Willey, 33, was hog-tied and shocked with two Tasers simultaneously by officers at the Prince George detachment. He died hours later in hospital.

An autopsy later found Willey had cuts, bruises and broken ribs but ultimately died from cardiac arrest brought on by a cocaine overdose.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... eport.html

Lots of information out there. As I said "People are dying all the time from Taser use". Shall I do more of your homework?

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

As i've said before, 4 big RCMP trained in such techniques would have no problem subduing him. Without resorting to the potentially lethal force they had decided to use long before they even knew the situation.

And if they tackle him to the ground, which was the other option, and he died, would that have been acceptable?

Seriously???? Yeah, let's go with one of two extreme options. How about number 3 where they approach him slowly and talk quietly. Besides, the guy was what, almost 80? If yer thinking tackling him was the other best choice, I'm glad you are NOT a police officer. I think 4 cops could have subdued him and should have been able to do so without causing any real injury, other than to the poor guy's pride at worst.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Lots of information out there. As I said "People are dying all the time from Taser use". Shall I do more of your homework?

You still haven't proven anything.

Your trying to exaggerate the fact that taser deaths are rare. So rare, that they happen "all the time".

Your insinuation is nothing short of false.

So rare, they happen less than death due to lightning and less than those who die from spider bites.

If you went to someone and said, "people die all the time due to spider bites" they'd laugh at you, although they happen 2x more often than taser deaths.

Do people die "all the time" using fireworks?

Do the math, Mr. Google.

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

As i've said before, 4 big RCMP trained in such techniques would have no problem subduing him. Without resorting to the potentially lethal force they had decided to use long before they even knew the situation.

And if they tackle him to the ground, which was the other option, and he died, would that have been acceptable?

Seriously???? Yeah, let's go with one of two extreme options. How about number 3 where they approach him slowly and talk quietly. Besides, the guy was what, almost 80? If yer thinking tackling him was the other best choice, I'm glad you are NOT a police officer. I think 4 cops could have subdued him and should have been able to do so without causing any real injury, other than to the poor guy's pride at worst.

Perhaps you should verse yourself on the story before you quote the guy at double his age.

40 year old man, drunk, angry, throwing shit around an airport.

Let's cuddle and make him feel welcome.

[EyeBrock]

Bad police bad police bad police.