[martin14]

bootlegga bootlegga:

This wasn't a Supreme court decision, but a Federal Court decision, which are different. still, that is brutal EB. No one should ever be allowed to cheat or lie their way into Canada.

$1:

He noted that even if Ms. Canlas stays here, the government can lay charges against her under the Immigration Act.

Maybe some time in prison or a stiff fine will teach her a lesson.

sure, she can keep her baby with her so she'll really feel punished.

or we can pay the daycare, only a thousand a day !

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

This wasn't a Supreme court decision, but a Federal Court decision, which are different. still, that is brutal EB. No one should ever be allowed to cheat or lie their way into Canada.

$1:

He noted that even if Ms. Canlas stays here, the government can lay charges against her under the Immigration Act.

Maybe some time in prison or a stiff fine will teach her a lesson.

No but the SCC give liars and cheats charter rights as soon as they land here, even if we know they are liars and cheats.

The 1985 Singh Decision bestowed charter rights on illegal immigrants making it nearly impossible to remove them. This Federal Court decision is more of the same. This stuff happens every day in Canada.

And there is nothing we or our 'leaders' can do it about it.

[Mustang1]

martin14 martin14:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

This is another transition that has been proceeded by countless others (nativist movements have been around in North America for centuries). While "new" immigration assimilation is different than its historical counterparts - namely the introduction of multiculturalism - it becomes clear that each new generation of immigrants does indeed assimilate. This may become lost in the mega urban environments but each successive generation of immigrants will slowly adopt Canadian values - perhaps mixed with others - and the extremists will always remain marginalized, radical and bent on destroying our way of life. These individuals should worry us.

No, I think it's different this time round.

There isnt the level of hatred to Canada that exists now.

There isnt the longing to keep involved with the old country.

There isnt the emotional baggage, most former immigrants were glad to get
out and say bye bye.

There are already existing ghettos for them to move into.

The government is way too much touchy feely with immigrants these days,
and way too willing to move to favor the immigrants over 'natives'

Not to mention the extremists who we just let walk in the front door.



There are also very large religous and cultural differences.

The difference between Poles and Italians is marginal..
both white, both Catholic, both European culture.

The gap is much bigger now.

It is different, but not as extreme as you post.

True, there isn't there isn't the level of hatred for Canada (but, historically others have hated our former colonial masters very much and that has resulted in internal/external crises that are nothing compared to today's rhetoric) then that there is now, but that's the extremists I was referring to - they're certainly not the majority and they should be indeed monitored.

There is a need to belong to their own culture - be it political, religious or ethnic, this does exist now as it did 50/100/150 years ago. The main difference is the geography, but that doesn't mean that there weren't significant issues 100 years ago as well.

There was massive emotional baggage, depending upon which immigration period. The French had it, the Irish had it, the Scottish had it, the Brits had it, the Germans had it, the Americans had it and that's only mainly 1st and 2nd wave! What might be not be missed is the religious turmoil, political baggage, cultural persecution or economic conditions that emerged as the initial push factor.

New ghettos do exist but consider this - what was Upper Canada, Nova Scotia or New Berlin? Cultural/Political enclaves did exist prior to 1st wave immigration AND many subsequent immigrants first sought out other "ghettos" when first arriving.

The government's "touchy feely" attitude could be interpreted as a response to official multiculturalism - which i already mentioned as a difference - or to other legal aspects such as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but don't forget that other land, political and cultural aspects - especially the former - were extended to "certain" immigrants prior to 1st wave and after as a means of "attracting" certain immigrants that don't today. Remember good ole Clifford Sifton - he was very aggressive to get certain Europeans to come to the "Last Best West" and the nativist sentiments regarding Ukrainians and Doukhobors are very comparable with earlier Protestant/Catholic, Loyalist/Republican, French/English, English/Irish, sentiments.

There is a gap today, that is undeniable, but the gap has always existed - it's relative. If you think that the nativist sentiment of the past centuries is radically different - based on cultural/religious/political/economic - than today, then some need a history lesson. It's always there - it's different, but it's been present since immigration started.

[Mustang1]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

This is another transition that has been proceeded by countless others (nativist movements have been around in North America for centuries). While "new" immigration assimilation is different than its historical counterparts - namely the introduction of multiculturalism - it becomes clear that each new generation of immigrants does indeed assimilate. This may become lost in the mega urban environments but each successive generation of immigrants will slowly adopt Canadian values - perhaps mixed with others - and the extremists will always remain marginalized, radical and bent on destroying our way of life. These individuals should worry us.

One of the concerns in France and Britain is the radicalization of second-generation immigrant Muslim youths that led to the London subway bombings and riots in France. In this case, you often have Muslim immigrants who, to some degreee or to other, assimilated into British and French culture, but it was their kids who were the radical ones.

Likely this was becasue these kids had been fed a diet of hatred for the west in mosques and militant Muslim shcools since they were knee-high. Britain and France--like Canada--are toleant countries. However, the one thing a tolerant country cannot tolerate is intolerance. We need to shut down these hate factories thinly disguised as religious institutions. It's not just Muslims. A little known fact outside of BC is that the biggest act of mass murder in Canadian hisotry was the bombing of Air India Flight 182 killing 329 people. This was likely perpetrated by Sikh separatists who were allowed to continually radicalize in the years leading up to the bombing.

Extremists need to be dealt with, i agree. That certainly isn't the majority of immigrants currently, but that doesn't mean that we need to alter our way to entertain cultural relativism either. Assimilation will happen, perhaps not in the 1st gen of immigrants, but it will happen - radicalized groups will always be marginalized and they represent an pressing state safety issue.

[martin14]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Remember good ole Clifford Sifton - he was very aggressive to get certain Europeans to come to the "Last Best West" and the nativist sentiments regarding Ukrainians and Doukhobors are very comparable with earlier Protestant/Catholic, Loyalist/Republican, French/English, English/Irish, sentiments.

The Czechs do the same thing to get Ukranians to emigrate,
figuring its easier for them to integrate than other groups.


I think there is a larger difference between Muslim/Christian
than Protestant/Catholic, but the Loyalist/Republican is a good one.

However the Irish knew they were coming to an 'English' country,
and I dont recall them blowing up stuff to change the country
to an Irish one.

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten: "There's a difference between 'refusing to assimilate', (although i would argue that there are huge holes in that statement considering they are assimilated now), and calling Canada a filthy nation and then planning to bomb several crowded areas of it.

I don't quite recall Ukrainians or Polish (or any others: German, Dutch) doing anything remotely similar even during the darkest days of bigotry leveled against them. Refusing to notice the difference there frankly is an insult to all other immigrants past or future who never dreamed of causing such pain and destruction."


bootlegga: "You just lumped in ALL immigrants as wanting to blow up Canada, but I've yet to hear recent Chinese immigrants say they want to "bomb several crowded parts" of Canada, or Thais, or Brazilians, etc. Not everyone who comes to Canada hates it, just a small minority."

[Mustang1]

martin14 martin14:

However the Irish knew they were coming to an 'English' country,
and I dont recall them blowing up stuff to change the country
to an Irish one.

The Fenians.

[martin14]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

martin14 martin14:

However the Irish knew they were coming to an 'English' country,
and I dont recall them blowing up stuff to change the country
to an Irish one.

The Fenians.

wiki:

In Canada, Fenian is used to designate a group of Irish radicals, a.k.a. the American branch of the Fenian Brotherhood in the 1860s. They made several attempts (1866, 1870, etc.) to invade some parts of Canada West (Southern Ontario) which was a British dominion at the time. The ultimate goal of the Fenian raids was to hold Canada hostage and therefore be in a position to blackmail the United Kingdom to give Ireland its independence. Because of the invasion attempts, support and/or collaboration for the Fenians in Canada became very rare even amongst the Irish.

A suspected Fenian, Patrick J. Whelan, was hanged in Ottawa for the assassination of Irish Canadian politician, D'Arcy McGee in 1868, who had been a member of the Irish Confederation in the 1840s.



They dont say how many members.

so they had a counter organization that disallowed violence, which we dont have.

support for the Fenians seems to have dried up pretty quick among other
immigrants.

Todays mosques either promote violence or say nothing.


Pattie got hung; our 18 get a slap on the wrist.

different...

[sandorski]

We need Population. Immigration is the best way to achieve that. [/thread]

That said, the best way to avoid Mass Migration is to Develop the Third World.

[fifeboy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Pot meet kettle...

That's really funny Ak, seeing as how you did the exact same thing yourself. You just lumped in ALL immigrants as wanting to blow up Canada, but I've yet to hear recent Chinese immigrants say they want to "bomb several crowded parts" of Canada, or Thais, or Brazilians, etc. Not everyone who comes to Canada hates it, just a small minority.

I wouldn't call a Polish lady who has lived in Canada for four decades who refuses to learn English, goes to a Polish doctor/lawyer/pharmacist/etc and only talks to other Polish people assimilated. Same goes for an ex-GFs parents who lived in Canada since the 70s and still do not speak English, eat anything remotely 'Canadian' (just rice, veggies and meat 3 times a day), and spend every waking moment in Chinatown assimilated. That's merely two examples I personally know of, I'm sure there are plenty of others just like them.

Conversely, I know several people from Afghanistan who speak fluent English, play hockey, eat bacon, smoke, drink like Canucks. Are they assimilated? I'd argue that they're closer to being Canucks than the other two examples I mentioned.

Well said.

[EyeBrock]

sandorski sandorski:

We need Population. Immigration is the best way to achieve that. [/thread]

That said, the best way to avoid Mass Migration is to Develop the Third World.

We need population? Then encourage Canadians to have more kids with tax breaks instead of importing other peoples kids.

And why do we need 'Population' (sic)? That's just the tired old argument the pro mass-immigration lobby trot out.
I can't see much benefit from more people in the GTA. More traffic jams, longer line ups ER, more bodies and no further federal or provincial investment.

Canada takes more immigrants per capita then any other developed country.

Mustangs points on issues with previous 'waves' of immigration is not a true comparison.
We are allowing in 250,000 people in a year, add in 40,000 refugees and that's a lot of bodies, that's not including the thousands of illegals we don't know about. It's not a 'wave' it's a constant and large flow.

At the moment we also have thousands of family class immigrants coming in, as in a lot of old people, straining our health-care infrastructure without any further investment into said health-care budget.

We don't need old people who can't speak either official languages. We need to have a realistic and fair immigration system.

We need to stop pandering to special interest groups/immigration lawyers and get rid of the liars, cheats and criminals that we let in by the thousands each month.

I'm not bring race or country of origin into this. I don't really care where people come from.

I just think we are allowing too many in full stop.

Too many people who don't have the skill set or language abilities to compete.
Too many liars, cheats and criminals coming in. We have enough of our own, we don't need other country's wankers.

Too many drains on our infrastructure and too little demanded by Canada of it's new citizens.

Canada is a great country, there are plenty of good people from all over the world who have the skill set we need, can speak the languages and want to integrate into our society. Lets get a few hundred thousand of them in and kick out the liars, cheats and criminals.

[Mustang1]

martin14 martin14:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

martin14 martin14:

However the Irish knew they were coming to an 'English' country,
and I dont recall them blowing up stuff to change the country
to an Irish one.

The Fenians.

wiki:

In Canada, Fenian is used to designate a group of Irish radicals, a.k.a. the American branch of the Fenian Brotherhood in the 1860s. They made several attempts (1866, 1870, etc.) to invade some parts of Canada West (Southern Ontario) which was a British dominion at the time. The ultimate goal of the Fenian raids was to hold Canada hostage and therefore be in a position to blackmail the United Kingdom to give Ireland its independence. Because of the invasion attempts, support and/or collaboration for the Fenians in Canada became very rare even amongst the Irish.

A suspected Fenian, Patrick J. Whelan, was hanged in Ottawa for the assassination of Irish Canadian politician, D'Arcy McGee in 1868, who had been a member of the Irish Confederation in the 1840s.



They dont say how many members.

so they had a counter organization that disallowed violence, which we dont have.

support for the Fenians seems to have dried up pretty quick among other
immigrants.

Todays mosques either promote violence or say nothing.


Pattie got hung; our 18 get a slap on the wrist.

different...

Why quote wiki? Evidently i know my Canadian history.

Actually, you posted " I don't recall them blowing up stuff to change the country
to an Irish one." That was incorrect. All i did was offer up the history to prove it. Besides, The Battles of Ridgeway, and Eccles Hill (I guess Wiki didn't have that) and Canada's only political assassination (McGee) are hardly insignificant. It is different...it was far worse as this was an impetus for Confederation.

And some are commenting on new immigrant's lack of assimilation while getting a crash course in Canadian history? To quote a fellow Canuck, "that's a little ironic, don't ya' think?"

[EyeBrock]

D'Arcy McGee, everytime I go down Sparks Street in Ottawa I think about that shot...

Like Mustang, I don't need to wiki this stuff. I just love it and read about it. Often.

[Mustang1]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Mustangs points on issues with previous 'waves' of immigration is not a true comparison.
We are allowing in 250,000 people in a year, add in 40,000 refugees and that's a lot of bodies, that's not including the thousands of illegals we don't know about. It's not a 'wave' it's a constant and large flow.

Actually the nativist sentiment has always been the case. In fact, during the wave (and this is as a % of pop) of 1896-1914, over 3 million immigrants came to Canada - that's not a true comparison? What about the ghettos of Jews, Greeks and Chinese that came to settle in Toronto, Montreal, Winnipeg and Victoria during this period? You don't think that the same issues now didn't exist then? Please.

In fact, "the foreign problem" was lamented by Canadians during this period as an assault on Anglo-Canadians. J.S. Wordsorth had a deep concern over Winnipeg's 1/4 -1/3 immigrant population in 1918. Stephen Leacock commented on the lack of assimilation when he called new arrivals, "unfit material from which to build a commonwealth of the future." This sounds like a decent contemporary parallel to me.

[EyeBrock]

Ok, stop using facts against me Mustang!

The difference is that the immigrants in the 1896-1914 period ( a well known 'surge') is that for better or worse the immigrants were basically forced to accept British North America and it's culture. Intergrate or suffer the consequences.

These days, for better or worse, we ask nothing of our immigrants. Pop over here from your Stone-age countries and do what you want, we don't want your loyalty, we don't expect it.

Commit crime before you become a citizen, that's fine.

Lie on your application, that's ok too.

In the days of the Dominion these guys either couldn't get in or got kicked out.

We were so backward in those days.