[Gladman]

We can't get out of it now. The US is going ahead with it weather we let them or not. Ask yourself what Canada can do as a country to halt this process. The answer is very little to nothing.
I'll prophisize something for you. There will be a mds and Canada will be a part of it.
Time will tell but I'd bet my best tuke on it.

[chrisfer]

Gonzo Gonzo:

The missile defence program would be a waste of money. First it wouldn't work. Never has anything shot down a missile. George Bush the first lied to his people when he said that they shot down missiles in Iraq. When they showed videos they were off Iraqi missiles breaking apart. Imagine that, a Bush lying to the American people. The technology doesn't exist. Secondly, no one has shot a missile here, so why build defence for it? This remindes me of the nuclear arms race. Building these weapons just for the sake of building them. Creating work for companies that leaders have shares in. They are not needed.

Hey everybody, lets make sure we know the facts before we make decisions.
Fact #1 Missiles can hit missiles and do monthly. Ever heard of the U.S. TMD
The Theatre Missile Defence system has shown itself able to make direct hits on missiles both in the early and mid flight stages. In November a TMD missile was launched from the U.S and hit a test missile not proximity over the Pacific. The U.S. Now deploys at all times 1-2 cruisers/destroyers in the western pacific which have been otufitted with the latest in SM-3 anti-missile radars.

Fact #2 Only Russia and China are potential enemies with intercontinental missiles. North Korea 10 years ago had missiles that could reach 400-500km (south Korea). Now they have new missiles (the U.S has monitored the test launches) with ranges of 1600km giving them the range to hit Japan. With only a little help from china or given time they will have the range to hit North America.

Fact #3 North korea is a dictatorial communist state run by one man who's economy is in ruin and has claimed to have nuclear weapons. If backed to the wall he would use them.

Fact #4 It takes years to make any kind of effective missile defense, do you want to wait before or after we attacked

I say do whatever it takes to protect my family and country. If anyone has opened the news lately the worlds not a very safe place.

[Scape]

And with thinking like that we will all have guns trained on each other while we all grow poorer. The military is an insurance policy to protect against disaster, there is a point where you can have too much insurance and there is defiantly a point where we can too much military. Dehumanizing nations and ideologies to make them the enemy when the actions of escalation only add gas to the fire of fear will not make the world safer for anyone except the people who make the bombs. We are addicted to violence, far too much so. It is an unreasonable assumption to think that WMD's will fly in the future without a missile shield, they can hit us now. It is unreasonable to be spending our children's future on extravagant defenses that do not serve the common good and it is a crime to believe that anyone but Canadians have a say in how we should defend our boarders. If they want a MDS on our soil they can dam well invade us and take the dam country over 1st. Last time I checked the maple leaf still flew over the Parliament building not the union jack or the stars and strips and certainly not the hammer and sickle. They have there place just not in this fine land thank you very much.

[Gladman]

A crime to think that anybody but Canadians have a say in the defence of our border eh! Well, I don't know what your background is but I would assume anyone with a reasonable sense of military tactics would find it extremely hard to believe that a country the size of Canada could be defended by 80 F-18's. So, the defence of this great country of ours is really up to our neighbours to the South. To think differently is assinine. When you can't defend yourself, you don't have a say in what goes on in your country.

With that, the US wants the shield and it will happen.

[Scape]

Not so.

What is my background? Canadian infantry for 11 years and I ran for the last federal election. If Switzerland can be surrounded for eons and defend its boarders while maintaining trade with the rest of Europe what is the difference here? Putting it another way would Israelis tolerate the Syrians telling them how to defend their boarder? Yes they trade with each other and have an interest in sharing security as they share a boarder but would you think, for a nano second, that they would even table a bill in the Knesset to allow Syrians a say in Israeli defense? No, of course not. If the US want's to build the modern version of the Maginot line we won't stop them. If they want to build it on our soil and make us a target to any interest group that wishes to do harm to the US then they can have it in their territory as the risks far outweigh any possible benefits. That is the cost of a free country.

National Missile Defence
Thursday Dec. 2, 2004
Hon. Bill Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the right hon. Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is quoted in the media today saying that he talked about the weaponization of space with President Bush and that the President assured him weaponization of space was not implied in the missile defence system. I am tempted to ask whether he also sold him some swamp land in Florida at the same time, but I do not want to be provocative. In his discussions, given that he has said he is very much against the weaponization of space, did the right hon. Prime Minister try to prevail upon President Bush to have the United States adopt the same position and be actively opposed to the weaponization of space?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, I have said in the past, and I repeat here again, I have stated unequivocally that Canada is opposed to the weaponization of space. I stated that to the President of the United States.

Hon. Bill Blaikie (Elmwood—Transcona, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I asked the Prime Minister whether he tried to prevail on the President of the United States to have the Americans adopt the same position. He did not answer that question.

I also want to say to the Prime Minister that it is not just about the weaponization of space. It is also about the prospect for a new arms race. This can happen with or without the weaponization of space.

Is the Prime Minister not concerned that by entering into missile defence, if that is the ultimate position of his government, that Canada will be legitimizing a new arms race, something which is hardly in the interest of Canada or consistent with the values of Canada?

Right Hon. Paul Martin (Prime Minister, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that an arms race is neither in Canada's interest nor in any other country's interest, which is one of the reasons we have been at the forefront of the fight against nuclear proliferation. I also discussed that with the President, the absolute necessity of stopping nuclear proliferation and of stopping the spread of nuclear weapons. We will continue in that vein because that is a fundamental tenet of Canadian foreign policy. It has been from the beginning and will continue to be.

[human]

Gonzo,

$1:

The missile defence program would be a waste of money. First it wouldn't work. Never has anything shot down a missile. George Bush the first lied to his people when he said that they shot down missiles in Iraq.

When they showed videos they were off Iraqi missiles breaking apart. Imagine that, a Bush lying to the American people. The technology doesn't exist. Secondly, no one has shot a missile here, so why build defence for it? This remindes me of the nuclear arms race. Building these weapons just for the sake of building them. Creating work for companies that leaders have shares in. They are not needed.

What a typical apologist you are.

Why I am saying this?

Because local typical Apologists, first they bring up the money factor, then the uselessness of anything we do or up to do, then the Lie rhetoric, and as usual end up their apologetic discovery by explaining the uselessness to imply how excessive their expertise is; therefore, they must be credible in what they are saying, and exactly and by the book, the same way you did here.

First of all, though it is negotiated with the American from the first day that our "support" for the missile defence program, that we can’t stop no matter how hard we tried, will not cost us a cent; you had to insert your apologist big lie right up front, so deceived people think of you as their well being concerned one.

Second, the patriot missile system has its glitches, but it proved in the first gulf war that it is a good prototype if the satellite technology was to be improved to the degree of 0.5 errors, which is a hard and costly[US is paying, we are providing the field experiment], but not impossible even with the missile improvement the Russian declared lately ; while at present, the system still stand at 85% accuracy.

As far as lies goes, I think that was your ultimate duty here, but then try to imagine millions like you who are repeating the same propaganda all over the world, something got to give, and someone will be deceived some how, and only that is why I know you are not going to stop your propaganda and nothing else that has to do with any truth, honesty, or common sense because you know more than anyone else that you don’t need such garbage; your lying tongue is good enough…

[Scape]

The mind of an enlightened human being is flexible and adaptable. The mind of the ignorant person is conditioned and fixed. Litmus test: Ultimately, it is through serving others that we become fully human.

If you are a Canadian then where is your compassion for the Canadian defense? Your defending the US defense built on our soil then go live in the US and sell it to them. Peace must develop on mutual trust, do you trust the US foreign policy being imposed on Canadian soil? Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together and MDS is a 1st strike weapon. If we do nothing, MDS will be in place and we will be slaves to the policy. If we stand up to it and reject it on the principal that it is an unreasonable escalation of force then we will be speaking as Canadians not as a satellite to the US policy. True nonviolence is an impossibility without the possession of unadulterated fearlessness and we must not be co-opted by the fear mongers who are crying the praises of MDS. You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note.

[human]

Scape,

$1:

The mind of an enlightened human being is flexible and adaptable. The mind of the ignorant person is conditioned and fixed. Litmus test: Ultimately, it is through serving others that we become fully human.

If you are a Canadian then where is your compassion for the Canadian defense? Your defending the US defense built on our soil then go live in the US and sell it to them. Peace must develop on mutual trust, do you trust the US foreign policy being imposed on Canadian soil? Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together and MDS is a 1st strike weapon. If we do nothing, MDS will be in place and we will be slaves to the policy. If we stand up to it and reject it on the principal that it is an unreasonable escalation of force then we will be speaking as Canadians not as a satellite to the US policy. True nonviolence is an impossibility without the possession of unadulterated fearlessness and we must not be co-opted by the fear mongers who are crying the praises of MDS. You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note.

I say to your majesty the same thing I said to mcpuck in another thread, and little bit more…

I certainly agree with you on the principle of creating an effective military, however, I don’t see the independency issue is something that can be acquired in less than five decades [since the dependency started during the cold war, five decades ago] and that five decades time limit will be only possible if we have all the production elements in place, and the economical means to support such decision; therefore, from the point view of realism, I say we should settle to evolve our military in accordance with our present security need instead of trying to overpass the USA military power, or become totally independent in this field because don’t forgot that independent military producers are also military exporters, and to tell you the truth, the world at this time doesn’t need another Weapon producer who is more dependent on the world market demand than its own economy because that what made Europe the independent economy fall to the dependency on the Arabic military import market.

Our security concern shouldn’t in any way consider the USA a threat because that not only contradict the decision we made 5 decade ago to depend on USA of any outside threat, but also jeopardise that same security if we do without having any effective reliance on an alternative in place.

For us to change this policy off a sudden is like claiming national bankruptcy.
Even though our trade dependent economy is as stable, now, as having a surplus, and maybe it will be as stable without the USA partnership here, but then trades economies without solid production and manufacturing system in place [like Japan], the chance for of the survival of such economy are not as solid.

Therefore, for us to be totally independent, we must deal with the dependency issue not by calls to shun the USA and insult its president, but rather with the visionary will of creating the planed economical atmosphere that will lead us safely to that complete independence.

But then let’s ask our self a serious question here…

If the people of a country is dependent on its government subsidies to survive, and the wages trapped in the inflation circle of union/management contrast, and the government is forced every year to change the tax system in a plot to cover the subsidised services expenses while it is paying its debts INTEREST that was caused by either mismanagement or by the subsidised services from its tax coffers, and some of the principals from its trade surplus coffers, how the hell the people of that country can call for independence before freeing themselves first from their dependency…

Certainly for your majesty to pretend that you are the ultimate Canadian is something always expected from the wanabees, but I have no doubt that if you were really that concern about our national identity, you would've at least assessed the sacrifices before you make your empty call that prove only that you are more for the destruction of Canada as much as you are sensitive to the Americanization of Canada...

Your Majesty's turn now... You were saying?

[Scape]

Your majesty. I never said I was royalty I just put my money and my actions where my mouth is. I have defended this nation and I do care about the defense of this nation. I have walked the walk and have earned the right to talk the talk. If you are having trouble with coping with that fact then by all means sign up for service or join a party and start pounding the pavement for the constituents of your riding. Until then the more you talk out your ass and play the blame game the more you look like the court fool. If you want to look and act like an ass you will be called one.

You have the unmitigated gall to label Gonzo an apologist and then do the exact same thing by saying that the policy in place today has been under the momentum of five decades of depending on the US. Look up hypocrisy and you will see your ass.

Trying to overpass the USA military power was not my point and you have to have a serious lack of reading comprehension to make that assumption from my post. Be that as it may I am not surprised your retreating to straw man argument tactics to try to make your points. It is not my intent or desire to have Canada compete in the global arms market, rather just produce what we need to defend our side of the 49th that's it. Adopting the Swiss model of national defense would be the ideal for Canada, imperialism is at the bottom of my 'to do' list.

To 'deal' with the dependency issue is to recognize and deal with it and not to dismiss it. Our recourse is not to suck up to an administration that has totally ignored basic economic theory at the behest of it's own cronyism. We must embrace free market economic theory and not monopolization and mercantilism that is being touted by the Bush administration, an administration btw that has shunned the international community while still demanding favorable terms of interests for it's huge debt. The Americans are dependent on their system but have abused it to the point it is doomed to collapse, we must distance ourselves from them to limit the inevitable damage while we still can. Deep integration will doom us to a fate they have done much to earn while we have done much to balance out budgets. You want a piece of that shit pie? Then by all means I won't stop you from leaving Canada and signing up for enlistment to Iraq, have fun.

[electricbuford]

Something missing from the debate on BMD is the historical aspect of military advantages-they're often temporary.Ronald Reagan suggested that "star wars" could make the threat of nuclear war obsolete.When he was first talking about it,the possible threat of dirty bomb was never mentioned.Nor was the possibility of using hijacked airliners as weapons discussed either.Although at the time,we did have advanced fighter interceptors that could have shot them down,and we had them on 9/11/01...but for some reason we didn't launch them quickly enough.
Threats change,new ones arise.The only constant seems to be man's proclivity to destroy.There are a couple of posters on this site who seem to be somewhat close minded,and borderline racist....So I'm going to put this in language that they can understand.Below is a discussion between two U.S./Israeli hating towel heads following the anouncement by the Whitehouse that BMD is 100% effective and fully operational:

Towel head #1 "Habib!-Did you hear the news?,the infidel Americans have deployed a fully effective Missile defense shield!"

Towel head #2 "So what Hashim,we have enough plutonium now to make our dirty bomb,and we've got plenty of suitcases! The foolish infidels spent so much money on the missle shield,they couldn't afford to improve their inferior intelligence services....we are now stronger than ever-praise Allah!

As for North Korea,the biggest threat to me seems to be them selling anything to anyone with the hard cash.Although it would seem to me that the transaction of complete intercontinental ballistic missiles and their associated launching systems to a bunch of guys who are used to hiding out in the desert seems kind of a stretch to me.And as for North Korea,as crazy as Kim jong Il is,I seriously doubt he's going to risk total annilation of himself by trying to launch an attack on the U.S. or south Korea for that matter.He obviously has no concern for his own people,but you can bet he cherishes his own survival.Same goes for Russia,China,and any other country that has flyable nukes.
If somebody wants to hurt us,they'll find a way.Military advantages and superiority have historically been quite temporary.You might have "The big stick",but sooner or later,somebody is going to find a way around it.The danger is that potential enemies just become more creative-especially if they feel their backs against the wall.We can't get the bad guys to line up in neat rows right out in the open so we can use overwhelming force to annilate them anymore.These days it's more about hearts and minds,and a more covert approach.Does anyone think that an F-22 raptor is going to have an effect on terrorism? But what about a Green Beret,(or any of the western special forces) that can speak Arabic fluently? which is more cost effective?

Indeed Twila,what happened to common sense?

[human]

Scape,

$1:

Your majesty. I never said I was royalty I just put my money and my actions where my mouth is. I have defended this nation and I do care about the defense of this nation. I have walked the walk and have earned the right to talk the talk. If you are having trouble with coping with that fact then by all means sign up for service or join a party and start pounding the pavement for the constituents of your riding. Until then the more you talk out your ass and play the blame game the more you look like the court fool. If you want to look and act like an ass you will be called one.

So you think you are the only one around who did that; therefore you had to use it to brag about it like it is the grand favour that, unlike us, you disciplined yourself to do because you are 100% pure Canadian and we are not.

I will not use insult as you do at this time so you can prove your IMMATURITY AND HYPOCRITHY, which wouldn't have the chance to exist in you if you were living beside a Canadian army unit, and left alone joining one, so take your propaganda and use it where you can really make a huge impression, mostly in Arabia.

$1:

You have the unmitigated gall to label Gonzo an apologist and then do the exact same thing by saying that the policy in place today has been under the momentum of five decades of depending on the US. Look up hypocrisy and you will see your ass.

So the army persona who can't stay away from insult because he was never disciplined except in Arabic Armies is now the defender of the entire platoon, and exactly at the time when he can't even defend himself?

I have to say, it was a call for help....From General NAMUMBA to Gonzo...Help...Help...

I think the ultimate proof of you never were, are, or will be in the Canadian Army just came out of your babbling mouth only by making this above statement alone, your majesty.

$1:

Trying to overpass the USA military power was not my point and you have to have a serious lack of reading comprehension to make that assumption from my post. Be that as it may I am not surprised your retreating to straw man argument tactics to try to make your points. It is not my intent or desire to have Canada compete in the global arms market, rather just produce what we need to defend our side of the 49th that's it. Adopting the Swiss model of national defense would be the ideal for Canada, imperialism is at the bottom of my 'to do' list.

Wow... you want to defend our side of the 49th?

Hmmmmmm...

Not the Imperialism side for sure?

Last time this term was used, it was used by the communist because they also considered once that the 49th as their border, but then that was 5 decade ago as I said, and still insist...

$1:

To 'deal' with the dependency issue is to recognize and deal with it and not to dismiss it. Our recourse is not to suck up to an administration that has totally ignored basic economic theory at the behest of it's own cronyism. We must embrace free market economic theory and not monopolization and mercantilism that is being touted by the Bush administration, an administration btw that has shunned the international community while still demanding favorable terms of interests for it's huge debt. The Americans are dependent on their system but have abused it to the point it is doomed to collapse, we must distance ourselves from them to limit the inevitable damage while we still can. Deep integration will doom us to a fate they have done much to earn while we have done much to balance out budgets. You want a piece of that shit pie? Then by all means I won't stop you from leaving Canada and signing up for enlistment to Iraq, have fun.

First you don't care about imperialisim then you talked about free market, monopolization, and mercantilism?

I say, before you start talking economic, you have to know not only the meaning of the word you uttering, but also what the word ECONOMIC MEANS AND DO ALONG POLITIC?

[Scape]

I do not know what has happened to common sense. We have nations who have 181,000 dead elect a president with a moral mandate. Must be the mandate of the undead. We have Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf saying the war on terror has made the world less safe yet we have idiots like human daring to question the integrity of anyone who suggests we should not be married to US foreign policy and then says that because I have served I don't have a right to say anything about it. F14 435 897 that's my service number bucket lips go look it up. Nice to see your posting in black and blue for you have obviously been beaten silly by your own pompous attitude.

[human]

Scape Scape:

I do not know what has happened to common sense. We have nations who have 181,000 dead elect a president with a moral mandate. Must be the mandate of the undead. We have Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf saying the war on terror has made the world less safe yet we have idiots like human daring to question the integrity of anyone who suggests we should not be married to US foreign policy and then says that because I have served I don't have a right to say anything about it. F14 435 897 that's my service number bucket lips go look it up. Nice to see your posting in black and blue for you have obviously been beaten silly by your own pompous attitude.

I only know two things about you.

One is, you were never been in jail, and the other is, I don't know why.