[spikecomix]

I really don't feel a "great East West divide" here and I think I can say that because I've spent a considerable amount of time on both sides of this land. Really the only East hatin' going on is against Toronto ;D We *like* diversity so we're glad to have everyone

But I've also lived in the States, where a conversation between a Liberal and a Conservative could *quickly* escalate into fisticuffs.

I fear for America, I actually *do* fear for a revolution, (even more) facism, or civil war. I fear it as an American citizen.

[Canadaka]

i to have never really felt this "great East West divide".

i also think its not corrent to call the "west" concervative, sure alberta is, but BC is pretty Liberal. we actually don't even have the conservative party in provincial elections.

[Welsh]

OK, are you just trying to be disingenuous?

First, I wrote the following:

$1:

Welsh wrote:
1. First of all, the divisions within Canada seem much stronger to me than within the US. The East-West conflict on culture and economics exceeds anything I have experienced in the US.

You have the "Have" provinces constantly fighting with the "Have-not" provinces about allocation of monies.

The liberal east clashing with the more-conservative west on values.

In fact, you even have referendums about separatism of Quebec from the rest of Canada which seems likely to flare up again.

I even hear about western provinces wanting to separate from the rest of Canada and take their economies with them.

Then there is the english-speaking vs. french-speaking debate that is viscious and seemingly never-ending.

How can you go on about such issues in the US when the sky may really be about to fall down on your own heads?

It is almost incomprehensible how, in your need to get your "fix" of America-bashing, you seem oblivious to the magnitude of your own problems.

Then a response came from spikecomix:

$1:

spikecomix wrote:
I really don't feel a "great East West divide" here and I think I can say that because I've spent a considerable amount of time on both sides of this land. Really the only East hatin' going on is against Toronto ;D We *like* diversity so we're glad to have everyone

But I've also lived in the States, where a conversation between a Liberal and a Conservative could *quickly* escalate into fisticuffs.

(btw, the fisticuff remark is total b.s., I've lived here my entire life and never seen a fistfight over politics (excluding large rallies - where it might be rare.)

Then the next disingenuous response came from Canadaka:

$1:

Canadaka wrote:
I to have never really felt this "great East West divide".

Are you kidding me? I wasn't even going to respond. I read about this divide all the time in the Canadian press.

Then I went to canoe.ca and lo and behold, in todays columnists I found the following:

"As a western Canadian," I said, "I have long felt disenfranchised by our eastern liberal elite and the smugly weak-kneed society it has rammed down all our throats. Some Westerners feel greater kinship with our cousins south of the 49 since after all we share the same continent with the same mountain ranges, vast prairies, forests, etc.

"Some of us, when we can't take it any more, even make a run for the border."

Doesn't exist, eh?

read the whole article online at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnist ... 96088.html

He also says the following:

"These are the same people (referring to Canadian liberal elites) who live in a country where almost one in three voters would elect a criminal dynasty to govern them; where freedoms are being eroded daily in the name of trumped-up "rights;" where citizens are taxed at more than double the rate Pharaoh levied against his slaves -- because brainwashing them costs money. Who live in angry denial of the fact that their "evil" neighbour provides their defence, fuels their prosperity and beams in most of the culture that they actually enjoy."


And anyways, that was only ONE example of the MANY divisions I see in Canadian society today and which I listed in my post above.

What about all the rest?

[Canadaka]

I don't know anyone personaly that feels that way, sure there will be some that feel "disenfranchised".

If you ask me its the media playing it up a lot, specialy lately.

$1:

"These are the same people (referring to Canadian liberal elites) who live in a country where almost one in three voters would elect a criminal dynasty to govern them; where freedoms are being eroded daily in the name of trumped-up "rights;" where citizens are taxed at more than double the rate Pharaoh levied against his slaves -- because brainwashing them costs money. Who live in angry denial of the fact that their "evil" neighbour provides their defence, fuels their prosperity and beams in most of the culture that they actually enjoy."

this is your opionion, its wrong, but you are entitled to have it.

[Streaker]

Wow Welsh! Reading the Winnipeg Sun has made you such an expert on Canada!

$1:

Are you kidding me? I wasn't even going to respond. I read about this divide all the time in the Canadian press.

This East-West thing does exist but gets really exagerrated by the media, notably by right-wing tabloids like the Winnipeg Sun... Try finding a better source next time.

[spikecomix]

'Cause the media is the 100% authority on all information ever.

Have you ever lived in Canada? Because I've lived here since I was 4 save for a 3ish year stint in the States. If there was such a divide in Canada, larger you say than the Liberal/Conservative divide in the States.... shouldn't we, the Canadians... notice it? I mean, yes there is political animosity between the provinces, but there is a BIG difference between political animosity and REAL PUBLIC animosity. If there is such a huge divide, theorhetically everyone from BC should hate everyone from Ontario. I've never seen anyone recieve flak for being "from Ontario" or "from the East". I don't even get any flak for being FROM QUEBEC and there's a bit of actual animosity for that.

And I used the word "fisticuffs" for a reason. Nobody uses that word so by using it I implied that it would escalate to the level of challenge. I have seen people get REALLY angry. I've seen people stand up and make threats and brandish fists, I've seen people needing to be calmed down and pulled apart from political discussion in the US. In the US I hear people ACTUALLY SERIOUSLY calling each other "fucking Liberal scum" and "Conservative psycho" for having a diferring opinion.

And I have *yet* to hear any Canadian complain about a similar divide taking hold in a social aspect of Canadian life. So, Welsh, I'd really like to know your credentials for stating that this is a really big problem without citing sources from the internet.

[DarkWater]

I'd have to agree with what's above. The whole devide is rather over inflated. It's mostly the Provincial governments locking horns with each other and Ottawa.

Some people pick up on it and carry it on farther than it should be.

It's mostly the same thing in Quebec.

I would hate to loose any of these provinces to some political scuffle. Whether they realize it or not, they make daily contributions to defining who and what Canada is. Most people know this too and usually find the political arm wrestling amusing before turning off the tv.

[DarkWater]

Welsh Welsh:

These comments are so juvenile they really doesn't deserve a response. But as an American it seems it is not only my duty to be "World's Policeman" but "Corrector of Canadian (and sometimes American) ignorance".

If there was a war brewing, I would have read about it, or heard about it.

This is all pure crap.

I never said it was "brewing". But doesn't even the idea of your country falling back into another civil war, for any reason, frighten the hell out of you?

[Jaime_Souviens]

1964-D-Peace 1964-D-Peace:

Case in point....

Okay. Let's deal squarely with the issue of facism.

"- exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual"

That's Québec nationalism and American & Canadian liberalism.

" - uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship
to forcibly suppress political opposition"

Thankfully, absent from both countries.

"- engages in severe economic and social regimentation"

Thankfully, absent from both countries.

"- engages in corporatism"

Let's check that in wikipedia, too. "corporatism is a political system in which legislative power is given to corporations that represent economic, industrial and professional groups."

Strangely, only ever found in the United States during the post-Depression New Deal, and sadly echoed in the welfare state aspects of Canada.

"- implements totalitarianism"

The fairly individualistic nature of Canadian society and the highly individualistic nature of American society express the opposite of totalitarianism.

Facism? No.


Note: Your light & airy passive-aggressive style is unconvincing.

Have a nice day.






.

[GunPlumber]

Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism

Dr. Lawrence Britt, a political scientist, wrote an article about fascism which appeared in Free Inquiry magazine -- a journal of humanist thought. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). He found the regimes all had 14 things in common, and he calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The article is titled 'Fascism Anyone?', by Lawrence Britt, and appears in Free Inquiry's Spring 2003 issue on page 20.

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -- Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -- Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need". The people tend to 'look the other way' or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -- The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -- Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -- The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media -- Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or through sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in wartime, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -- Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -- Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -- Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -- Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -- Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses, and even forego civil liberties, in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -- Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions, and who use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -- Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against (or even the assassination of) opposition candidates, the use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and the manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

[PJB]

This is a question that goes out to the American posters here. What is the American definition of a Liberal and a Conservative? I have a feeling the definitions are quite a bit different than the Canadian definition.

[Juno]

sigh

[Zipperfish]

$1:

Lately, Canada has been flipping America the bird with suicidal abandon.

That's a great line.

[Jaime_Souviens]

GunPlumber GunPlumber:

Fourteen Characteristics of Fascism...

Point??




.

[Zipperfish]

$1:

This is a question that goes out to the American posters here. What is the American definition of a Liberal and a Conservative? I have a feeling the definitions are quite a bit different than the Canadian definition.

This is interesting, because there has actually been a pole shift between the "Republicans" and the "Democrats" (or the "right" and the "left" if you prefer) probably starting with Reagan but reaching fruition with the Bush neo-conservatives.

Traditionally the Republicans were the great protectors of individual liberty who naturally distrusted government. Reagan said "Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other." Democrats, on the other hand, favoured more socialist approaches to pressing issues, such as gun control, etc.

Enter the neo-conservatives. The neo-conservatives are actually misnamed. First of all they are not conservative (that is, in the sene of seekgin to "conserve" the status quo). Thye are, in fact, quite radical, as any reading of the neo-conservative bible "Project for a New American Century" will reveal. Bascially the premise of the papers put forth by Project for a New American Century state that the US should shape a world favorable to US interests by military means.

But a subtlety often missed by analyzers is that the military is a government program like universal health care in Canada. What the actually neo-conservatives actually want is a massive government run mega-project: Let's take taxpayers dollars out of productive enterprise and apply them to a government-run program. In the case of Iraq, this confiscation of private wealth runs into the hundreds of billions.

Bush has seen the realization of the neo-conservative agenda. Despite paying lip service to smaller government and classic Republican principles, Bush has increased government spending, centralized power, instituted trade protectionist policies, created entire new bureaucracies, limited individual freedoms in favour of the state and done all of this on deficit spending. These are all the hallmarks of a socialist government.

Another indication is the pervasive appeal to morals and conscience, and the need for the individual to sacrifice for the greater good. Greater good is socialist talk. Capitalists talk about Adam Smith's invisible hand. They would have said that the individual working for his own interest unintentionally promotes the interest of society more effectivley than he who really intends to promote it.

So what you have is not "neo-conservatives" but "radical socialists." The right in te United States have become socialists.