[guest123]

http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewt ... 10&start=0

Bad news?

[othello]

Western alienation feels, to me, something that people like to talk about, but is no real threat. People like to complain about Ottawa. It's practically a national pasttime.

The bitching these days focuses on paying too much to the rest of Canada in transfer payments (a selfish complaint, if I say so myself), a need for democratic reform (it's the pot Edmonton calling the kettle Ottawa black), Kyoto (some credible concerns, focused on short-term economic impact on local oil & gas industry), and the gun registry (which is not specifically a west issue, but a rural vs. urban issue with rural westerns shouting louder than others).

But, if push ever came to shove, Albertans would stick by Canada. Freedominion.ca is representative of the far right in this country, and are not representative of the average citizen, even in right-wing Alberta.

[AdamNF]

I don't get it. I mean I have family in Alberta (i think ever Newfoundland does lol) i have been to alberta, and its a very wealthy province, they have money coming out of the ying yang. They have money power and a great economy. What is there to complain about? No time for complaints by the west.

[Rev_Blair]

What it really comes down to is that they, as a "have" province, feel they pay too much to the rest of the country, Adam. Of course Alberta never bitched about that back when they were a "have not" province, before they hit oil.

Saskatchewan is a different story. Some there think they'd be better off joining the US and some think they'd be better off if the western provinces left and became a country of their own. Both ideas are stupid...ask one of the low-population states to Saskatchewan's south how often they are recognised by the rest of the US. Think about Saskatchewan would fair any better if their elections were decided in BC and Alberta instead of Saskatchewan.

[Rosco]

AdamNF AdamNF:

I don't get it. I mean I have family in Alberta (i think ever Newfoundland does lol) i have been to alberta, and its a very wealthy province, they have money coming out of the ying yang. They have money power and a great economy. What is there to complain about? No time for complaints by the west.

Alberta would be an economic and cultural powerhouse if it wasn't for Ottawa treating the province like it was a colonial cash cow, there only to provide for the people of Quebec.

[AdamNF]

Oh boo hoo. At least you are a wealthy province. Westerners in general complain the most about Ottawa, but itÂ’s the east coast thatÂ’s gets screwed over the most. Newfoundland for example gets screwed buy Ottawa on a regular basis, we finally have a premiere who doesnÂ’t take there bullshit anymore but we are shit ignored and still the poorest province. So please donÂ’t give me that shit unless youÂ’re at the bottom of the barrel.

[othello]

$1:

Alberta would be an economic and cultural powerhouse if it wasn't for Ottawa treating the province like it was a colonial cash cow, there only to provide for the people of Quebec.

I'm not sure where this Alberta on one side, Quebec on the other position has come from, but it sure is popular around here. Alberta's equalization payment money goes to all the "have not" provinces, which include everyone except Ontario. On a per capita basis, the four atlantic provinces get the most, then Manitoba, THEN Quebec, then Saskatchewan and finally BC gets the least.

An Albertan can point to the scandal, or the whole sponsorship program as a problem, but so can a Newfoundlander or a Haligonian. Alberta has no lone authority to be disproportionately upset about it.

P.S., I don't see Alberta becoming a cultural powerhouse, regardless of whether it pays into confederation or not.

[Mukluk]

AdamNF AdamNF:

Oh boo hoo. At least you are a wealthy province. Westerners in general complain the most about Ottawa, but itÂ’s the east coast thatÂ’s gets screwed over the most. Newfoundland for example gets screwed buy Ottawa on a regular basis, we finally have a premiere who doesnÂ’t take there bullshit anymore but we are shit ignored and still the poorest province. So please donÂ’t give me that shit unless youÂ’re at the bottom of the barrel.

Dude, you did the same thing in a previous thread. Just because Ottawa does it worse to the East Coast (in your opinion) doesn't make it right! Boohoo we're worse off than you is not a solution.

Dismissing Western alienation by claiming East coast alienation is worse is weak at best. The fact that anything East/West/North of Ont/Que feels alienated is a real problem. In fact, it is the dismissive nature of the alienation that is occuring that is fueling the problem.

m

[Mukluk]

AdamNF AdamNF:

I don't get it. I mean I have family in Alberta (i think ever Newfoundland does lol) i have been to alberta, and its a very wealthy province, they have money coming out of the ying yang. They have money power and a great economy. What is there to complain about? No time for complaints by the west.

Man alive. Alberta is not the West. It is in the West, it is one of four provinces in the west, it is not "the" West. Your model to success of nation appears to be:

Find a province that makes the most money, and take it. Nevermind making it a model for the rest of the country, let's just take it. Once oil tanks and the province is cash poor again, we'll take it from someone else, but at least then we'll all be equally poor.

BS

m

[othello]

$1:

Find a province that makes the most money, and take it. Nevermind making it a model for the rest of the country, let's just take it. Once oil tanks and the province is cash poor again, we'll take it from someone else, but at least then we'll all be equally poor.

Don't even think about holding up Alberta as a model for the rest of the country. Alberta has the dumb luck of sitting on top of a veritable gold mine of oil & gas. This has given the province a lot of financial freedom in its own provincial budgets. But, it hasn't made it any better than any other province.

Much of this country is based on the principle that those more fortunate will carry a greater burden on essential services so that they may be made available to all of the population, including those who would not be able to afford them themselves. That is why we have a "progressive" tax structure with increasing marginal tax rates. That is why the poorest among us do not have to pay income tax and receive GST rebate.

Some Albertans have forgotten that they aren't any better than anyone else in this country, it's just that they live on top of natural resources during a period of high commodity prices.

[Rosco]

What does the Maritimes contribute? Good people live there but there's no getting around that that part of the country will always be somewhat poor and backwards.

Alberta loses the second most out of all provinces, let alone Western provinces, to transfer payments and unlike much more populous Ontario it gets nothing back in the way of priviledge or favorism to show for it.

Albertans are probably the most industrious and ambitious province of people in the country and there's no telling what they could accomplish if they got to reinvest those large billions in themselves instead of losing it to Ottawa. Most of the so-called "Have Not" provinces are more like "Don't Wants" IMO, though capable of improving their economies they don't for fear of losing those tranferred dollars.

[Indelible]

dollars and cents aside, what i don't like is how the votes go with the population distribution. i also mentioned this in the other western alienation thread earlier. once that gets fixed and an albertan like me can have a say, then we can worry about "have" and "have not"

[othello]

Based on the number of voters per seat (using the new seat allocation), the following list starts with province where each vote is worth the most (i.e., the fewest voters per seat) and ends with the province where each vote is worth the least:

PEI
Saskatchewan
New Brunswick
Newfoundland
Nova Scotia
Manitoba
Quebec
Alberta
Ontario
BC

This suggests that those in BC and Ontario have the most to complain about in terms of having a say in parliament, and those in PEI and Saskatchewan have the least to complain about.

Doesn't seem like that much of a rationale for "western alienation".

[Rev_Blair]

The next election will still almost certainly be decided beforethey start counting ballots in Manitoba though, Othello. That's why proportional representation is so important...if parties received seats according to their percentage of the popular vote, Parliament would look quite different and the ruling party would be forced to act in a more responsive manner to the concerns of all Canadians.

Proportional representation would do a lot to alleviate alienation all over the country.

[AdamNF]

$1:

What does the Maritimes contribute?

Well seeing the federal goverment is stealing all our oil profit from us and Quebec is talking all the money we make from Hydroelectric power stations i dont know. But everyone seems to be making a fotune off us.