[fred22]

Hi Meatbomb,
I don't get the extra round for friendly fire? Are you talking about shooting someone with an uncounted round so you would not have to justify it?
JTF2 baited and shot Somali teens and the airbourne got blamed? WTF are you talking about? I have never seen any referance in the inquiry or any public record of JTF2 shooting Somali's period and it was quite the inquiry.
The airbourne also flew stars and bars from it's vehicles in somalia and had discipline problems even before they headed over. We need them for what?
The dumbest thing about it all was not only did they act like the new confederate army they also videotaped and photographed their assholery. The shame is their were some great guys in the outfit who were of great benefit to the army and locals. Where the hell was their leadership? I have never seen so much ass coverring in my life as the seemingly endless stream of senior cno's and officers paraded in front of the inquiry.
Heres a few cool links about them
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-723-431 ... alia/clip7
Theres lots more. Even if the remainder were great soldiers these clowns fucked it so badly how could anyone expect the Canadian public not to shut them down? My question is how come these people were not kicked out and or sent to edmonton? Then this whole thing might have been avoided.
Cheers
fred

[FreeFlatScreen]

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In keeping with the spirit of my last offer I will give each person that completes an offer on freeflatscreens.com using my referral link a GMail invite. I make this offer in the spirit of my freeipods proposition even though only two people wanted an invite for completing a freeipods.com offer.

freeflatscreens.com offers several choices of flat screens:

* Samsung 17" LCD Monitor ? $400
* Samsung 15" LCD Flat Panel TV ? $430
* 27" FD Sony Trinitron WEGA TV ? $400
* Toshiba 24" Pure TV/VCR/DVD Combination ? $500

Personally, I think the 15" LCD TV is the way to go for coolness factor alone unless you are in the neighborhood for a new computer LCD.

[Atreyu]

Get rid of that last f#&kin post and ban whoever the asshole is that posted it. Talk about lack of respect!!! Also, the Canadian public has no idea what goes on overseas with our troops. Our troops get shot and shoot back. The gov't doesn't want the people to know what goes on. Anyone who has done a deployment knows what I'm talking about.

[Richard]

I think that is the problem in a nut shell if the public knew a little more of what goes on in the real world they may be a little more inclined to bitch at their respective Mp's to send a little of the tax money they pay to the military.

[Regina]

The guy should have the decency to buy a banner rather than spam the forum!! Nothing in life is free.

[fred22]

Hi Guys,
Spam should simply come in a can. I agree the great unwashed should insist on a stronger military. I also agree that on deployments our troops have to pop the occasional human zit. I do not agree that killing for fun , torture or racism have a place in the military period.
Cheers
Fred

[MeatBomb]

fred22 fred22:

Hi Meatbomb,
I don't get the extra round for friendly fire? Are you talking about shooting someone with an uncounted round so you would not have to justify it?
JTF2 baited and shot Somali teens and the airbourne got blamed? WTF are you talking about?

I have never seen any referance in the inquiry or any public record of JTF2 shooting Somali's period and it was quite the inquiry.

The airbourne also flew stars and bars from it's vehicles in somalia and had discipline problems even before they headed over. We need them for what?
The dumbest thing about it all was not only did they act like the new confederate army they also videotaped and photographed their assholery.

The shame is their were some great guys in the outfit who were of great benefit to the army and locals.

Hey fred.

'Keeping and extra round' refers to pure unadulterated mutiny. Some peacekeepers like myself who had seen double or triple back-to-back peacekeeping missions blamed the brass for the fact we were under fire for days and weeks on end. The extra bullet was for the brass that those soldiers felt were responsible for our predicament. One Col. was poisoned by Canadian peacekeepers in Croatia.

For us, peacekeeping was about peace, not getting shot at. Not that we didn't expect to get shot at, but the least they could have done was equip us for a war if that was what they wanted us to do. We were just peacekeepers because it payed better than regular duties, and we got some travel in. In Croatia, half the force was reserves, and they really weren't expecting what the Croats threw at us (with assistance from the U.S.).

There were many stories that came out of Somalia, one of them was that soldiers would leave out food for the somalis that would sneak into camp out of sheer desperation. Some snuck in to steal things to trade for food, others would steal food. Once the somalis were 'baited' they would be shot. What you won't find in any inquiry was the troops that were doing this, did it to impress US Special forces brass that were visiting at the time. Those troops became JTF2. The inquiry simply didn't go deep enough, and was cancelled before it got to the real problems in the Airborne. As you say, the leadership. But, if I reveal that I was Airborne in Somalia - do you blame me for what Pte. Brown did?

CFB Griesbah *shudders*. Military prison. *shudders* From what I've heard, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[fred22]

Hi Meatbomb,
It's too bad if troops were using food to bait somali's they were not put in Dorchester. That is some sick shit to shoot starving people to impress anyone.
No I do not blame anyone for what Private Brown did but Private Brown.My biggest problem was the airboune senior ncos and officers should have had a better grip on the troublemakers period.
The idea of shooting your platoon commander or imediate leadership for back to back deployments is stupid but so are are back to back to deployments to the worlds shitholes without aduquate support or numbers not to mention fuzzy mandates.
As to whether or not you were in the airbourne as I stated many outstanding troops served in it. The problem was organizational in that the leadership failled to exert discipline and the role of the regiment was to say the least dated.
Cheers
Fred

[MeatBomb]

fred22 fred22:

That is some sick shit to shoot starving people to impress anyone.

You ever met a hard core US marine? Those are some twisted individuals. Just like any force though, the majority are nice fellas.

fred22 fred22:

The idea of shooting your platoon commander or imediate leadership for back to back deployments is stupid but so are are back to back to deployments to the worlds shitholes without aduquate support or numbers not to mention fuzzy mandates.

It wasn't about the back to back deployments, it was about what some of the guys felt was a complete lack of leadership in the Balkans while under fire. The back to back deployments were partially our own fault. Mostly, I blame the government. Why keep volunteering troops for UN peacekeeping, when you don't have enought troops to fulfill the requirements? Why call up 500 reserves for a 6 month tour in order to fulfill those requirements?

fred22 fred22:

The problem was organizational in that the leadership failled to exert discipline and the role of the regiment was to say the least dated.
Cheers
Fred

[fred22]

Hi Meatbomb,
What was the fall down in leadership in the Balkans? Just plain stupidity in the field or the fact you were there? I was not in the Balkans but have read extensively about it. I would apreciate your opinion on it. From what I have seen and heard it was a mess for most of the time. Reservists are always being used to augment the regs on those deployments and they get very little support when they get back home.
Cheers
Fred

[MeatBomb]

fred22 fred22:

What was the fall down in leadership in the Balkans? Just plain stupidity in the field or the fact you were there? I was not in the Balkans but have read extensively about it. I would apreciate your opinion on it. From what I have seen and heard it was a mess for most of the time. Reservists are always being used to augment the regs on those deployments and they get very little support when they get back home.
Cheers
Fred

At the time, it was because we felt we were told to maintain peace in an active war zone. There was no peace to keep. If they wanted war, well that was OK, but we had no heavy artillery, tanks, or even much anti-armour weapons. One battle, we only had the launch tubes for the TOW rockets, the rockets were already on their way back home.

After the fact, it's easy to see command did the best with what they were ordered to do. But at the time, we blamed to brass for making what seemed really dumb decisions. They wanted us to take an area held by the Croats who had lots of armour, and we had none. No air support, not anti-armour . . .just our good looks to convince the Croats not to shoot us.

Recently, I learned we were being shelled by the Croats using US armament and sat. recon maps provided by the US to the Croats. Thanks America!! Of course, we didn't have those maps nor artillery to return fire. Plus we were at times staring down the barrel of a T-72 tank, compliments of the Germans. An APC (M-103?) is no match for a T-72. But, we were the only force who was totally mobile. (those poor Nepalese peacekeepers )

Yes, the reservists had it the worst. They don't normally make up 1/2 of a batallion though. From what I've found out, DND doesn't even know the names of all the reservists who served there.

Cheers Fred.

[fred22]

I really feel that the Balkans was a great showcase of how not to do things. I have great respect and sympathy for those forced to serve under those circumstances. I read that Mackenzie snuck in M113 TUA and one got used on a serb tank. It just made me very angry when I read about the lack of heavy weapons and shitty ROE that led to the Brits calling us Pussybat. I also heard about the yanks supplying the croats who were little better then the Serbs when they went through like locusts as well. Well meatbomb at the very least you got your ass out of there and that is a good thing.
Cheers
fred

[SprCForr]

Hmmm...Where do I start? Somalia, I guess. The leaving food and material out for bait is not a "story". A respected Engr WO who was on the ground absolutely opposed it refused orders to provide the material and raised the issue with the chain, gave testimony about this very thing to the inquiry. So it's not a story. Meatbomb, if you were there you'd know who he was. As for the JTF angle, that is the beginnings of a conspiracy theory. Those crackers wouldn't get past the required pysc screening. It's very thorough. Yes the inquiry was stopped too soon. What were the real problems within the CAR that we don't know? I did 25 hard field as a Sapper and I'm real sure I know, so fill me in. Yes, alot of key people should have been punished but were not. The vast majority of serving soldiers do realize that Kyle Brown was a scape goat.

Now on to Croatia. It was Matt Stopford, a WO in 2 VP, not a Col who was poisoned. The extra bullet thing is a stupid fantasy, I had tons of contact with all rank levels and never even detected that crap once. If I missed it then the men in my Section would have picked up on it real fast. Yes, there was some dissatisfaction, hauling sandbags up Mt Petrim must have sucked big black diseased donkey dick but some troops will always bitch, but they all knew it wasn't the fault of the OC or Pl Comd. They were in "it" more so than the men and didn't have the horsepower to change it. As for not knowing the names of the reservists who were attached to the Battle Group, it's called a nominal roll. A copy is with the Unit War Diary. Just because NDHQ don't know, it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't know. Now for the issue of not having access to any help. TUA is a viable lethal threat to armour. Especially the T-55/T-72. Just because the UN can't deploy with armour doesn't mean you can't counter it effectively. If you are a soldier you know this. Armour is very vulnerable to infantry in close country and even more so in an urban environment. As for not having the missiles available, are you sure? It is not policy for a unit to back-load ammunition on the completion of their tour. It stays for the next. I saw with my own eyes Ammo techs unloading multiple tractor trailers loads of the stuff in '92. It was still there in '94. The OP ceased in '95, so where did it go? IFOR had to have got it from somewhere when they stood up. The 81mm mortars held at Bn are capable of providing very good close support. Artillery places a big burden on the logistic system of that size of unit, not to mention screwing the manning levels. So that was sensible. HF radios were alloted to each Coy. These sets were capable of talking to the assets of the Saratoga Carrier Battle Group in the Adriatic. They provided no other use in day to day operations so why were they there? Reservists had it worse? How? When? The vast majority of leadership at the lower levels was extremely effective and innovative. The continuing success of our troops on these missions is a direct result of this. The operational tempo drove alot of it, you were too busy for the chickenshit. As the SFOR mission dragged on, more and more garrison routine crept in. It's a natural result of the threat condition lowering. So to say that the leadership was poor is BS.

Oh yeah, Green Berets were training the Croats. Muj were augmenting the Bosnians. Russians were helping the Serbs. So what. We all knew it or suspected it. Medak validated most of our preparations and training. The Croats got whipped. They know and we know it. Prior to that, why was the Okucani region of Sector West the only place to escape the general Croat spring offensive in '93? We were ready for them and they knew it. That's why. Col Nordick (CO 3VP) was made a virtual Brigade Comd for that time and he made damn sure we were prepared, Nepbat stayed and Argbat was ready with their Marders. Some poor leadership. Last thing, ROE was not the responsibility of the unit or the Contingent. It came from higher and yep they sucked. But they didn't prevent anyone from doing the right thing to ensure the safety of our troops. It just made us make damn sure of our selves before we pulled the trigger. Any NCO worth his pay knew that a piece of paper written by a chair-borne REMF lawyer was worthless and irrelevent when you and your mens' bag was in the vice.

Brits are Brits and they will always be shit-eaters . A tip o' my hat to our allies. Always through thick and thin, now the times are a little thin.

[fred22]

Hi Sapper,
Thanks for the very informative post. Sounds like the voice of experiance as opposed to my book reading. I thank you and it was great to hear it.
Cheers
Fred

[SprCForr]

Fred,

You're welcome and yes, I lived it live and in colour for a few days a long time ago.

More on the poor leadership thing. Reading Romeo Dallaire's book about Rawanda really gives a good look at what goes on in the high levels of the UN. It sheds alot of light on some of the stupid things we would hear about down in the trenches. It's that mess that needs to be sorted ASAP. That sort of crap infiltrates in at every level it seems. Kofi should appoint someone to clean and organize that house. I vote for Lew McKenzie. Assisted by Romeo Dallaire. It would directly benefit the troops and they would probably leap at it in a second.