[Thanos]

If the Germans are working hard and paying the freight for the rest of those idiots over there then damn right Berlin should be setting the rules. I'd love it if the Germans came around and demanded that countries who are sponging off of them and not doing what they're told to do to get out of the self-inflicted messes they're in should be booted out of the Eurozone altogether and left to sink or swim on their own. Europe wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for the perpetual welfare going to pay out the bozos on the Mediterranean shoreline.

[stratos]

$1:

The fiscal policy of Greece does require the support of the Greek electorate. The Greek electorate can be criticized for that freely-given support, as it is currently enabling.

So this gives others the right to hate and we are back to where we started. If the Greeks can be hated for electing their Gov. Then Muslims can be hated for electing to follow Islam.

[stratos]

$1:

If the Germans are working hard and paying the freight for the rest of those idiots over there then damn right Berlin should be setting the rules. I'd love it if the Germans came around and demanded that countries who are sponging off of them and not doing what they're told to do to get out of the self-inflicted messes they're in should be booted out of the Eurozone altogether and left to sink or swim on their own.

When the EU was first starting up this is something that I recall some countries feared. The Germans and or French telling the other countries what to do and dominating the political and economical polices of the whole group. Not sure if they put in any safe guards aginst it or not. I do understand the concept of we are bailing you out we should have a say in how you get back on track. But to hate the people of a country over something like this is stupid in my mind. I'm not sure why Germany and the other members of the EU who have stable economies don't back off and stop the money. If it is so upseting to them just stop.

[Freakinoldguy]

DanSC DanSC:

I think much of Europe doesn't like Germans telling them what to do. Throw in some very sexist societies, and you can see the result.

Gee I wonder why there's some animosity towards Germany who are telling them what to do, especially from formerly occupied countries.

People and countries have long memories and history isn't going to disappear just because Germany has all the money, especially considering America put them in this position by rebuilding their economy and making them, in comparison to some of these other countries a financial superpower.

[saturn_656]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

DanSC DanSC:

I think much of Europe doesn't like Germans telling them what to do. Throw in some very sexist societies, and you can see the result.

Gee I wonder why there's some animosity towards Germany who are telling them what to do, especially from formerly occupied countries.

People and countries have long memories and history isn't going to disappear just because Germany has all the money, especially considering America put them in this position by rebuilding their economy and making them, in comparison to some of these other countries a financial superpower.

Then they shouldn't have joined the EU if they have such a problem with Germans.

God forbid they listen to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

[stratos]

$1:

Then they shouldn't have joined the EU if they have such a problem with Germans.

God forbid they listen to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Then Germany should have not let these other countries join if they have a problem with them.

God forbid they run their own country the way they wish to not the way Germany wants them to.

[Brenda]

The Greek government is trying to cut expenses and raise revenue and pay back the billions they owe to the rest of the EU. The Greeks don't want to. So they trash their cities. You know, because that makes sense.

The Greeks want the EU's money and demand a lot of things, but they don't want to do their share by actually paying.

Germany is one of the strongest economies in EU. Europe has moved on from the war.

[saturn_656]

stratos stratos:

$1:

Then they shouldn't have joined the EU if they have such a problem with Germans.

God forbid they listen to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Then Germany should have not let these other countries join if they have a problem with them.

God forbid they run their own country the way they wish to not the way Germany wants them to.

In order for the Eurozone to function there must be some forfeiture of sovereignty by member states. As the largest member of the Eurozone, Germany's wishes will have great weight.

If Greece wants to run their country how they wish, they need to drop out of the common currency.

[DanSC]

stratos stratos:

So this gives others the right to hate and we are back to where we started. If the Greeks can be hated for electing their Gov. Then Muslims can be hated for electing to follow Islam.

If you mean al-Qaeda's bastardization of Islam, yes.

[Freakinoldguy]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

DanSC DanSC:

I think much of Europe doesn't like Germans telling them what to do. Throw in some very sexist societies, and you can see the result.

Gee I wonder why there's some animosity towards Germany who are telling them what to do, especially from formerly occupied countries.

People and countries have long memories and history isn't going to disappear just because Germany has all the money, especially considering America put them in this position by rebuilding their economy and making them, in comparison to some of these other countries a financial superpower.

Then they shouldn't have joined the EU if they have such a problem with Germans.

God forbid they listen to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Like I said. It has less to do with fiscal ability and knowledge and more to do with having your grandparents put against a wall and shot for being partisans. History dies hard in that region of the world.

Most countries like Greece that joined the EU did so at the urging of countries like Germany, who may not have been completely forthcoming in how the power sharing would be allocated and now that they need to be bailed out they're resentful of the power the Germans are wielding over their lives which is understandable.

$1:

EU Invites Greece to Join The Single Currency Fold

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/20/news/20iht-A1_2.html

If this was before 2000 when they joined the EU they'd be standing cap in hand at the door of the IMF who would never have put such draconian requirements on the repayment of the loans. Don't believe me ask any one of those South American Countries that went bankrupt numerous times and have never payed back their loans.

[Brenda]

This is a nice little piece. We are talking about a 350 BILLION Euro loan in the past 3 years, and when the Greek government is trying to increase taxes, or any measure to get more money so they can pay off that massive debt (350 BILLION Euro's, 11 MILLION residents...), the Greeks trash their cities.
http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/FSMS/MS24%20.htm

Greece has been a member of the EC since 1981. They wanted to get the Euro from day one, but were not allowed. When they finally got in, Greece all of a sudden was not the cheap holiday destination anymore that it always was. That cost them A LOT of money.

[michaeel]

Brenda Brenda:

the choice was the Greek government or the people/country.
The people are demonstrating what the government is trying to do while the rest of the EU is paying.

The people are demonstraiting cuz they have a good reason for it!!! They earn less, and have to pay double/ triple price for any product. I'm not surprised that everyone is angry and people are demonstraiting. This is totaly government's fault.

It doesn't matter what the governmant or Angela will do or try to fix it, it'll always be perceived negatively.

and the religion has nothing to do with that!!!!

[Brenda]

michaeel michaeel:

Brenda Brenda:

the choice was the Greek government or the people/country.
The people are demonstrating what the government is trying to do while the rest of the EU is paying.

The people are demonstraiting cuz they have a good reason for it!!! They earn less, and have to pay double/ triple price for any product. I'm not surprised that everyone is angry and people are demonstraiting. This is totaly government's fault.

It doesn't matter what the governmant or Angela will do or try to fix it, it'll always be perceived negatively.

and the religion has nothing to do with that!!!!

That 'religion' thing was a personal jab at me. Don't take it seriously.

Btw, EVERYONE in the EU earns less and pays more. How much income tax or sales tax do Greeks pay? How much property tax? (answer to that... ZERO, because they pretend their house is not finished. Close that loophole...) How much road tax?

See, to be paying more taxes to save your own country is one thing (which the Greeks refuse to). But to have your sales tax raised to 21% (and looking at having to pay 23...) to save someone else's ass is a very big pill to swallow.

[BartSimpson]

DanSC DanSC:

If you mean al-Qaeda's bastardization of Islam, yes.

Hmm. Al-Qaeda is an adjunct of the Wahhabist movement and the growing support for Wahhabist fundamentalism in the Sunni world is rooted not in the 'bastardization' of islam by the Wahhabists, but by the fact that they're truly promoting a purer form of islam than are the so-called moderates.

It's the moderates who have compromised traditional islam with the West and a growing number of muslims are wanting to restore the pan-islamic theocracy of the Caliphate and they want islam not to coexist with other religions, but for it to reign supreme as it says in the koran.

Part of this phenomenon is no doubt similar to why fascism and militarism rose up a century ago.

You take people whose nations were once important empires (Egypt, Iran, Syria, Libya, Turkey, etc.) and are now just 2nd and 3rd world afterthoughts and then you present them with a movement that says they're the rightful rulers of the world. It's very seductive to people who live in dusty crapholes to tell them that they're the rightful rulers of Russia, Europe, China, the USA, and etc.

Add to this that the Wahhabists really do have the literal text of the koran to support their point of view and the more secular moderates have precious little to counter them.

With the West now actively enabling the fundamantalists over the secular regimes that used to keep them in check it's entirely probable that we'll see a pan-Arab Caliphate maybe as soon as the end of this decade. The momentum of the mob in that neighborhood is desirous of this outcome as it will absolutely raise the profile of the Arabs in the world if they at least appear to be a rising power.

From a Western point of view we find it incredible to think that Libyans or Egyptians would surrender their national sovereignty but the problem is that their 'nations' are political constructs that were essentially created by the Europeans in the colonial period. The Arabs identify more at the local and tribal level than at a national level but then they all identify as muslims at a transnational level and a majority are willing to throw away their European-imposed national identities in order to secure a more islamic identity in a new state that is both politically and religiously oriented to islam.

It's an argument that the secular West simply isn't going to win because the muslims are religious people and they're deaf to secular philosophies.

Bottom line: As much as some may detest Al Qaeda the fact remains that for many muslims it is Al Qaeda that hews closer to their faith than do their secular governments - all of which are tainted by the fact that they are rooted in heretical Western ideas.