[kal]

Dallaire did try to do somthing. While I'm not going to sit here and argue whether or not he was a bad commander, one of Dallaire's major problems was that he was not political. He had no idea how to get the UN to see his point of view, and thus never recieved any of the support he needed from the western nations. Canada was the ONLY western nation that continually backed up UNAMIR.
Several smaller nations (such as Tunisia) offered continual support but did not have the logistic or supply capability to support their troops and were required to rely on western nations for this. Dallaire's biggest mistake is that he offered a way for the UN to reduce the amount of troops in Rwanda, and they jumped at it (somthing he did not expect them to do, again showing his inexperiance with dealing with the UN). Blaming Dallaire isn't entirly fair. After all, an American officer told him that it would take the deaths of 80,000 Rwandans to be worth risking the life of a single American soldier.

[EyeBrock]

I think the point Lawndart and all the other ex-military guys are trying to make is that Dallaire is held up as a hero and rewarded with a Senatorial post when really he deserves none of it. Bottom line is he may be a nice guy but he was a military incompetent. His actions (or inactions) directly resulted in the deaths of the Belgian Para’s and his lack of leadership encouraged the thugs and probably contributed to the massacre of thousands.

It riles all of us how have served to see Dallaire be feted this way.

[ridenrain]

I would agree with that and his political appointment is directly relayed to his 15 minutes of fame. Usually the people who know what's going on say something that would embarrass the Government, kiss their careers goodbye and retire to write books that most Canadians never read. Indeed, I'd bet most ex-military folks would not be lining up to become Liberal party candidates.


If I recall correctly, the poll on army.ca on "election before Gomery" was running at about 75% yes.

[Gunbunny]

Tman1 Tman1:

dwaters dwaters:

ridenrain, Tman1, Patrick_Ross

I have one question for you. Have you ever served in the Canadian Forces or any other national military of any country?

No, I havent, is that relevant to this particular discussion?

It is relevent! In order to accuratly portray this failure of leadership you would be greatly aided by knowing what a good military leader is made of and what he/she will do/not do when the shit hits the fan. Without knowing what these leaders are like severely detracts from any argument you can make.

Gen. Dallaire (ret.) is a good staff officer but a terible field officer. It has been proven throughout all canadian military history, and all military history period that they are incompetent when it comes to a deployed opperation. They enevitably totaly screw the pooch and get their own people and at times friendly's killed. Just look at Lt Gen. Carare in 1942 when he got Lt. Gen. McNaughton recalled to Canada, susequenlty taking over all Canadians deployed to the european theater. He lobbied Sir. Gen Oliver Leese to deploy 1 Canadian Army Corps. to Italy just after Ortona and lead our for fathers to there deaths durring the begining of the battle of the Liri Vally. Dallaire is just as incompetent of a leader as Carare was. Good staff officers are just that. STAFF OFFICERS/PAPER PUSHERS .

There is no way that Dallaire will make a good senator. He is incompetent to lead and in no way could find is way out of a wet paperbag

Ubique

[Tman1]

$1:

It is relevent! In order to accuratly portray this failure of leadership you would be greatly aided by knowing what a good military leader is made of and what he/she will do/not do when the shit hits the fan. Without knowing what these leaders are like severely detracts from any argument you can make.

So in order to provide an opinion along with the distinction of agreeing and disagreeing with someones posts, I need to join the military? No, dwaters, this is a political forum in which a persons views can be agreed upon or disagreed in a argumentive and debating fashion, not because somebody claims to have the ultimate knowledge about a particular function of life, namely command in the military. Of course I would be to arrogant to presume I know more than you about the military because I dont. Im not disagreeing with you nor am I agreeing, I simply like the persons post in which it was presented. Besides, I dont like Lawndart.

$1:

There is no way that Dallaire will make a good senator. He is incompetent to lead and in no way could find is way out of a wet paperbag

Again, that is your opinion, doesnt make you right. Who does make a good senator? Who makes a great Prime Minister? Certainly not the ones we have now so who is to say he wouldnt make a great senator?

[Patrick_Ross]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

It's actually Lawndart here, log in problems.

Wow Patrick, that reply was so totally innane, I'm not sure where to begin.

True, I wasn't in Rwanda. So what? Does that mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it? I wasn't in the Crimean War either, so by your logic, I'm not allowed to say the Charge of the Light Brigade was a pointless waste of soldiers and horses. Hey, while we're at it, I guess we shouldn't bother having history courses in universities. After all, few of the professors giving lectures were actually present for the events they study, so who are they to form an opinion?

No Patrick. You're wrong. I think I'm quite entitled to read up on a subject, then draw on my own experiences and knowledge of human nature to form an opinion on it. And my experiences give me a fairly solid insight into the Rwanda tragedy. Although I never served in Rwanda, I did serve in Somalia in 93. I also did a peacekeeping stint in Cyprus, and wore the same uniform as General Dallaire for 8 years. I also had a section of soldiers under me, and I believe I have a pretty solid understanding of the demands of leadership.

Leadership, oh yeah. That's right. That's what officers are supposed to do. LEAD! Not lock themselves in their office while chaos reigns and have a cry (I didn't make that up by the way, that's from Dallaire's own book).

As for some of my suggestions in my (admittedly sarcastic) post and your take on them, all I can say is this. Many of those ideas weren't mine. They were first suggested by none other than retired Major General Lewis Mackenzie, a strong critic of Dallaire's. But I suppose he isn't possessed of the same insights into military strategy as yourself, eh Patrick? After all, Mackenzie only served on 14 peacekeeping missions, as opposed to Dallaire's one, and your none. What would he know eh?

As for Dallaire's disgraceful refusal to testify at the Belgian inquiry into their soldier's deaths, let's turn it around. Imagine for a minute, that 10 Canadians on a UN Mission abroad were hacked to death within sight of their Commander, a Belgian General. And then imagine that not only did that officer do nothing to intervene, that he then turned around and used a manufactured excuse to avoid coming to Ottawa to testify about the matter. Canadians would be furious! Leadership means accounting for one's actions. We expect it of the lowliest Master Corporal conducting a mock section attack on an exercise in CFB Gagetown, it's the least people can expect from a General.

(As an aside, you've questioned what Dallaire could have done to prevent their deaths. The Belgians had a full battalion there, and were chomping at the bit to launch an operation to free their comrades. He failed to act. There's a saying on military leadership courses. Doing nothing is ALWAYS the wrong decision.)

Wake up Patrick. Stop believing all the propoganda the Government shoves down you're throat and learn to think for yourself.

Cheers,

Lawndart

No. There's nothing inane here other than some shit disturbing little peice of garbage talking about something that he knows nothing about.
Anybody who knows anything about the Rwandan massacre is well aware that Romeo Daillaire's forces in Rwanda were so outnumbered, and so poorly equipped that Daillaire could not have responded to the assault on the Belgians in force or otherwise, and here is why:
Lesson number one - When learning how to stage any manner of a rescue, the first thing you are taught is never to respond alone, and never just rush right in. Doing this more than likely makes you the next casualty.
Lesson number two - When launching an armed act in a theatre of conflict, you must always mind your flanks. Going to the Belgians' rescue (too little, too late -- they were already "lying down" by the time Daillaire saw them, which, if you didn't know, is slang for incapacitated) would have opened up his forces for attack and subsequent massacre. Daillaire may have lost a number of Belgians (who never should have been serving in their former colony, as per UN rules), but not attempting the rescue was the only way to not lose the rest of his force.
Furthermore, by choosing not to mount the rescue, Daillaire was not choosing not to act. His action in this matter was to preserve the lives and wellbeing of his soldiers -- as is his responsibility.
As far as General McKenzie, I disagree with him, and frankly I am not surprised you don't have a thought of your own in your head.

Now, I'm pretty sure that you're feeling a little insecure at having just been owned like this, so you can feel free to scamper off now.
Idiot.

[Patrick_Ross]

dwaters dwaters:

ridenrain, Tman1, Patrick_Ross

I have one question for you. Have you ever served in the Canadian Forces or any other national military of any country?

Have you?

[Motorcycleboy]

Patrick, your personal insults are a clear indication of the weakness of your arguments.

As for your assertion that the battalion of Belgian Paras Dallaire had at his disposal wouldn't have been sufficient to launch the rescue mission all I can do is point out the Sierra Leonne mission in 2000. Leonne was descending into complete anarchy, along lines similar to Rwanda. That is, until a force of less than 2000 Brit Royal Marines and Paras arrived in the country. Within days they had sent the thugs scurrying and restored order.

The fact is that a small number of professional western troops can usually overcome exponentially superior numbers of African bandits. They always have, and probably always will. That may not be consistent with your "We are the world, everyone's equal" view of things Patrick, but it's a fact.

As for your suggestion that "acting alone or without thinking causes you to become a casualty", you're wrong there too (not surprisingly). I'm not suggesting Dallaire should have acted without thinking, but usually when chaos reigns, taking the initiative and acting boldly can be the difference between success and failure. You remind me of the score of cops at Columbine High School in 1999 who stood around waiting for the SWAT team to arrive and set up a perimeter while kids were being gunned down inside. That approach has been completely discredited in police training circles now as a direct result of the lessons learned from that day.

I realize you "know someone who once had PTSD" Patrick. But that doesn't give you the right to be an ignorant boor. Tone down the abuse and grow up if you want to take me on.

[Patrick_Ross]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

Patrick, your personal insults are a clear indication of the weakness of your arguments.

Do all of you idiots who say that actually buy it?

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

As for your assertion that the battalion of Belgian Paras Dallaire had at his disposal wouldn't have been sufficient to launch the rescue mission all I can do is point out the Sierra Leonne mission in 2000. Leonne was descending into complete anarchy, along lines similar to Rwanda. That is, until a force of less than 2000 Brit Royal Marines and Paras arrived in the country. Within days they had sent the thugs scurrying and restored order.

The Hutus responsible for the majority of the Tutsi massacres were no mere "African thugs". They had been funded, equipped and trained for years by the Government of France. Kinda let that slip through your radar, huh?

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

The fact is that a small number of professional western troops can usually overcome exponentially superior numbers of African bandits. They always have, and probably always will. That may not be consistent with your "We are the world, everyone's equal" view of things Patrick, but it's a fact.

A typical Euro/Amer-centrist view. There are actually a number of factors present in the Rwandan case study that defy this. #1- Hardware. When the majority of your "Armor" is actually outdated heavy haul trucks, it isn't as much good to you as you think. #2 When going to your headquarters, raising your flag and accepting the authority you have been granted (as well as every act you have performed since) is nothing more than a bluff, you are not in any position to be getting ambitious.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

As for your suggestion that "acting alone or without thinking causes you to become a casualty", you're wrong there too (not surprisingly).

Spoken like a true idiot. Where I come from, we hear stories about guys with this mentality, and they all have one thing in common -- they're all dead.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

I'm not suggesting Dallaire should have acted without thinking, but usually when chaos reigns, taking the initiative and acting boldly can be the difference between success and failure. You remind me of the score of cops at Columbine High School in 1999 who stood around waiting for the SWAT team to arrive and set up a perimeter while kids were being gunned down inside. That approach has been completely discredited in police training circles now as a direct result of the lessons learned from that day.

A completely different scenario, a completely different situation. While at Columbine moving directly into the school could have had disastrous effects, minimal intel would have been necessary to make a proper decision. However, you also need to realize that in this senario the numbers situation is entirely different -- in this case, in your favour.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

I realize you "know someone who once had PTSD" Patrick. But that doesn't give you the right to be an ignorant boor. Tone down the abuse and grow up if you want to take me on.

:roll: Every forum on the net there's a couple of you guys kicking around who think they can hand somebody dog shit and call it a chocolate bar.
But who's really being a boor? Because you're sitting here trying to condemn somebody based on some bullshit someone else passed along, obviously having no real clue as to what actually went on in Rwanda, and since you're so clueless you don't realize this, I'm going to pass along a little secret to you:
EVERY REPLY YOU POST TO THIS THREAD REVEALS THAT YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
You're placing yourself in the shoes of someone you've never actually met, and saying to yourself: "Oh, what the fuck, I'll take the risk." And you can do this because you're extremely comfortable being the person who doesn't die while you try to play armchair general.
What? Are you disgusted about what happened in Rwanda? Guess what? So is anyone with an ounce of sense. But if you look at all the factors at play in the Rwandan massacre, there's plenty of blame to go around -- to the United Nations, to the Catholic Church, to the country of Belgium, to country of France, and, yes, to Romeo Dallaire himself. Dallaire himself considers himself to have failed, but not in the way you're insinuating. Romeo Daillaire considers himself to be a failure for not being able to rally the international community to the aid of the Tutsis in Rwanda. But whether you want to admit it or not, Dallaire did everything that he could do to meet all of his responsibilities -- to the Tutsis, to the UN, to his troops. He was sent in alone and left for dead, all the while begging Belgian and French troops to stay and help restore order, all while they told Tutsis "this is your problem, you deal with it."
Do you grant the country that abandoned you and turned its back on the events transpiring in its former colony the satisfaction of crucifying you at an inquiry. No. Fuck them -- they didn't stick it out with you, you owe them nothing. The only Belgians you owe anything to are the families of your fallen soldiers -- and Dallaire has made himself easy to contact. All the moreso now that he is a senator.
And frankly, I suggest you read up on PTSD. You might have some sense why, after all that transpired, Dallaire's life took a nosedive. Until you've seen someone debilitated to the point where they can't do something so simple as travel to Medicine Hat because the terrain reminds you too much of the war, you have no sense of what this does to a person. None.
And as for taking you on, I've not only just taken you on, but I've already won.

[PENATRATOR]

Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

Patrick, your personal insults are a clear indication of the weakness of your arguments.

Do all of you idiots who say that actually buy it?

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

As for your assertion that the battalion of Belgian Paras Dallaire had at his disposal wouldn't have been sufficient to launch the rescue mission all I can do is point out the Sierra Leonne mission in 2000. Leonne was descending into complete anarchy, along lines similar to Rwanda. That is, until a force of less than 2000 Brit Royal Marines and Paras arrived in the country. Within days they had sent the thugs scurrying and restored order.

The Hutus responsible for the majority of the Tutsi massacres were no mere "African thugs". They had been funded, equipped and trained for years by the Government of France. Kinda let that slip through your radar, huh?

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

The fact is that a small number of professional western troops can usually overcome exponentially superior numbers of African bandits. They always have, and probably always will. That may not be consistent with your "We are the world, everyone's equal" view of things Patrick, but it's a fact.

A typical Euro/Amer-centrist view. There are actually a number of factors present in the Rwandan case study that defy this. #1- Hardware. When the majority of your "Armor" is actually outdated heavy haul trucks, it isn't as much good to you as you think. #2 When going to your headquarters, raising your flag and accepting the authority you have been granted (as well as every act you have performed since) is nothing more than a bluff, you are not in any position to be getting ambitious.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

As for your suggestion that "acting alone or without thinking causes you to become a casualty", you're wrong there too (not surprisingly).

Spoken like a true idiot. Where I come from, we hear stories about guys with this mentality, and they all have one thing in common -- they're all dead.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

I'm not suggesting Dallaire should have acted without thinking, but usually when chaos reigns, taking the initiative and acting boldly can be the difference between success and failure. You remind me of the score of cops at Columbine High School in 1999 who stood around waiting for the SWAT team to arrive and set up a perimeter while kids were being gunned down inside. That approach has been completely discredited in police training circles now as a direct result of the lessons learned from that day.

A completely different scenario, a completely different situation. While at Columbine moving directly into the school could have had disastrous effects, minimal intel would have been necessary to make a proper decision. However, you also need to realize that in this senario the numbers situation is entirely different -- in this case, in your favour.

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

I realize you "know someone who once had PTSD" Patrick. But that doesn't give you the right to be an ignorant boor. Tone down the abuse and grow up if you want to take me on.

:roll: Every forum on the net there's a couple of you guys kicking around who think they can hand somebody dog shit and call it a chocolate bar.
But who's really being a boor? Because you're sitting here trying to condemn somebody based on some bullshit someone else passed along, obviously having no real clue as to what actually went on in Rwanda, and since you're so clueless you don't realize this, I'm going to pass along a little secret to you:
EVERY REPLY YOU POST TO THIS THREAD REVEALS THAT YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
You're placing yourself in the shoes of someone you've never actually met, and saying to yourself: "Oh, what the fuck, I'll take the risk." And you can do this because you're extremely comfortable being the person who doesn't die while you try to play armchair general.
What? Are you disgusted about what happened in Rwanda? Guess what? So is anyone with an ounce of sense. But if you look at all the factors at play in the Rwandan massacre, there's plenty of blame to go around -- to the United Nations, to the Catholic Church, to the country of Belgium, to country of France, and, yes, to Romeo Dallaire himself. Dallaire himself considers himself to have failed, but not in the way you're insinuating. Romeo Daillaire considers himself to be a failure for not being able to rally the international community to the aid of the Tutsis in Rwanda. But whether you want to admit it or not, Dallaire did everything that he could do to meet all of his responsibilities -- to the Tutsis, to the UN, to his troops. He was sent in alone and left for dead, all the while begging Belgian and French troops to stay and help restore order, all while they told Tutsis "this is your problem, you deal with it."
Do you grant the country that abandoned you and turned its back on the events transpiring in its former colony the satisfaction of crucifying you at an inquiry. No. Fuck them -- they didn't stick it out with you, you owe them nothing. The only Belgians you owe anything to are the families of your fallen soldiers -- and Dallaire has made himself easy to contact. All the moreso now that he is a senator.
And frankly, I suggest you read up on PTSD. You might have some sense why, after all that transpired, Dallaire's life took a nosedive. Until you've seen someone debilitated to the point where they can't do something so simple as travel to Medicine Hat because the terrain reminds you too much of the war, you have no sense of what this does to a person. None.
And as for taking you on, I've not only just taken you on, but I've already won.

Just a question Pat Ross. Were you there? If not, how do you know what "really went on"?

Unless you were there, it sounds to me like you are just expressing your opinion, (which you are entitled to) but so is LawnDart.

[RoyalHighlander]

This thread os boardering on becoming a flame fest.. please try to keep your attacks on each other civil .. thanks (RH)

[PENATRATOR]

Hey RH, did you win that auction?

[EyeBrock]

I think Columbine is a great example to parallel with Rwanda. There the cops sat on their hands because of obsolete and rigid policies when they should have been flexible and aggressive in their response to “active shooters”.

Dallaire basically did the same in Rwanda.

Patrick, I’m sorry but in this case your lack of actual experience in the military, coupled with the fact that you have obviously never spent time in Africa or working with an African military organisation puts you at a slight disadvantage on this thread.

The Hutu’s army may have been trained by the French (a noble warrior nation in its own right with a recent and extensive history of successful combat operations……not! But that’s another issue.)
I’ve worked with the Kenyan’s (UK trained) the Ethiopian’s (Soviet trained) and the Senegalese (French trained), all these unit’s failed to display the level of competency, cohesiveness and general fighting ability of the worst NATO nation. To put it bluntly , the average African army is pretty useless at fighting. Oppressing their local civilian population is their basic mission and they are barely able to do that. Discipline is non-existent as we in the west know it.

A battalion of NATO troops could have stopped the Hutu’s in their tracks. If Dalliare had any real combat experience he would have known that. This thread probably wouldn’t exist if Lew MacKenzie had been the OIC of the Rwandan mission.

No disrespect to those who have never served, especially in Africa in combat or other missions, but you guys need a paradigm shift from your armchairs on this one.

Plain and simple, effective leadership was not present on this mission. Dalliare screwed up, big time. Why should he be a senator?

[Tman1]

What do any of our senators do anyways?

[Gunbunny]

Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:

dwaters dwaters:

ridenrain, Tman1, Patrick_Ross

I have one question for you. Have you ever served in the Canadian Forces or any other national military of any country?

Have you?

I have 8 years in the forces all with 20th Field Regiment, Royal Canadian Artillery. It's a reserve unit with 78 Field Batery in Red Deer. I have served over sea's in 2 tours. 1 in Bosnia in 1999 with Roto 7, and one in the Goalen Heights in 2001. I have also had the opportunity to train with the American US ARMY RANGERS and with the Green Berets, on a Basic Mountian Ops course out of Fort Lewis, That was an interesting course. 10 Canadain ARMY Reservest's 60 RANGERS and 20 Green beret's, 9 out of ten of us finished in the top ten of the course, I finished 2nd. I'm currently a Detachment Commander of a 105mm Howitzer as a Master Bombardier, it's a Sergents job. I should be getting the word soon that I'm going on work up training to go to Afganistan, I'll be going as either CIMIC or Psyops. Psyops would be an awsome job.

So yes I have and am currently serving as a member of the CF.