[Dayseed]

To all:

Is the Church dead in Canada? They've lost their views on gambling, liquor, homosexuality, premarital sex, abortion, divorce and now they're going to lose their view on same-sex marriage. Church numbers are dropping. Pedophiles are coming out of the woodwork, psychology has replaced counselling by the local minister and I can buy pornography on Sunday.

Is it time to send old Holy C to the glue-factory and put the whole thing out of it's misery?

Yes.

[Mustang1]

Yes! Another fan favourite gets a reissuing as we wade into the morass known as the Roman Catholic Church.

Is the Church dead? Is the Pope Catholic? Bahahaaa…no, seriously folks, I’ll be here all week. The Church’s societal influence is clearly in decline as its current state in Canada is nothing more than a refuge for the mystically desperate. It no longer commands any secular power as constitutional legislation and judicial decisions have slowly eroded its antiquated power base (abortion or Lord’s Day?). That’s why the same-sex marriage issue is of paramount importance to the Roman Catholic Church – it literally represents the last piece of social relevance (marriage) in the institution’s ever-dwindling arsenal. They lose this battle (and they will) and they’re left as little more than an archaic institution of theology.

Cue the inevitable Superstitious Right response!

[figfarmer]

Where I grew up Catholicism was just a legendary evil, like Yog Sothoth or Dracula. THE Church was the United Church.

[QBC]

Can't say that just the Catholics are loosing this fight over these issues. The Protestant churches are also fighting these things and are also suffering with declining congregations. The only "Christian" Churches that are growing are the fundamentalist groups. Ya know the ones that hate everybody that isn't one of them.

[Dayseed]

Is it a spike in attendence at fundamentalist churches? I know the elderly tend to seek them out before the end for comfort and meaning. Since septagenarians and above are beginning to swell the ranks of Canada, it may explain. However, I don't have any census numbers to back that up.

Quite frankly, I can see being more comforted about death by a priest or minister than I can Dr. Phil. BUT, I'd rather have Dr. Phil contributing to social policy. (IS Dr. Phil a religious nutsioso?)

Still though, it seems as though the Church has degenerated into the housecoat and bespectacled neighbour threatening to call the cops on a really great secular party next door.

[RoyalHighlander]

You see it in the news a lot as of late, where churches are closing and combining congregations together to save money, as there are not enough church goers to pay for building up keep etc.. Maybe people are getting smarter and starting to realise that the church isnt the only place you can pray...

[Robair]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Is the Church dead in Canada? They've lost their views on gambling, liquor...

The Catholic view on gambling and liquor? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Cue the inevitable Superstitious Right response!

The Catholic Church preaches thier version of right and wrong (ten commandments) not right and left. The Pope, actually, stopped just short of endorsing Kerry in the last US election. My mother is very Catholic and also very NDP.

Welcome to CanadaKA you two. Kindly learn a thing or two about my religion before bashing it, thanks.

[Twila]

$1:

Maybe people are getting smarter and starting to realise that the church isnt the only place you can pray.

I believe you maybe right. A building does not create devotion.

[putz]

$1:

Dayseed wrote:
Is the Church dead in Canada? They've lost their views on gambling, liquor...

The Catholic view on gambling and liquor? You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Mustang1 wrote:
Cue the inevitable Superstitious Right response!

The Catholic Church preaches thier version of right and wrong (ten commandments) not right and left. The Pope, actually, stopped just short of endorsing Kerry in the last US election. My mother is very Catholic and also very NDP.

Welcome to CanadaKA you two. Kindly learn a thing or two about my religion before bashing it, thanks.

Hey Robair! We found something that we agree on!

[Dayseed]

Robair Robair:

Welcome to CanadaKA you two. Kindly learn a thing or two about my religion before bashing it, thanks.

Ah, I see. I mustn't know anything about Catholicism or any of the Protestant churches. You singled out liquor and gambling as two things about which I should kindly learn.

Hmmm, no Christian Church has EVER preached Temperance to its followers? The Women's Christian Temperance Movement wasn't instrumental in the 18th Amendment to the US Constitution? Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't have belief in a Greater Power sorting out lives? No religious overtones in that step. You're right, you MUST have something to teach me about how liquor being available for sale on Sundays is lock-step in view with Christianity. I'm eagerly awaiting your wonderful lesson. Hopefully it's a goodie!

Secondly, you also singled out gambling. Yup, the Sin of Greed doesn't apply to gambling. I can go gambling on a Sunday! Why, there are bingos in Churches right? Christianity must support gambling! Screw observing the Sabbath and keeping it Holy. Up yours Catholic Third Commandment, Robair says differently! Unless he's a Protestant, then it's bite me Fourth Commandment!

Lastly, you TOTALLY ignored ABORTION, DIVORCE, HOMOSEXUALITY, PRE-MARITAL SEX and Sunday shopping. Isn't there anything you can teach me about those points other than society accepts them and they're contrary to fundamental Christian morality?

It IS nice to be here Robair. Thank you for your kind words. Now, since I am so ignorant of how the rampant sale of liquor and institutionalizing of casinos is practically Catechism, I'll just wait for your learned words.

This should be great!

[Robair]

I, like over 40% of Canadians, am Catholic. I am also a member of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization that raises funds for local charities.

You singlled out the Catholic Church in your first post, so how about we stick with that.

Dayseed Dayseed:

You singled out liquor and gambling as two things about which I should kindly learn.

I picked these two out because they are two points that I don't think you are up to speed on. Catholics are almost as well known for boozing as the Irish, or Canadians in general for beer drinking. When I'm working a Knights event, whether it be a poker derby, snowmobile rally, pancake breakfast, bingo or whatever, there is plenty of drink to go around. We get half cut and usually raise a lot of money for charity.

Now go back and read through my list of fund raisers again... how many of those involve some form of gambling?

Ever been to a Catholic Mass?

[Mustang1]

Robair Robair:

The Catholic Church preaches thier version of right and wrong (ten commandments) not right and left. The Pope, actually, stopped just short of endorsing Kerry in the last US election. Kindly learn a thing or two about my religion before bashing it, thanks.

Firstly, I need “learn a thing or two about your religion”? Why, because, in your infinite wisdom, you deem it so? Please. Why not provide me with some examples where I made an objective error regarding “your religion?” And don’t provide some unsubstantiated inference or fall back on the tired “it’s just my opinion” routine either. I’ll wait while you fumble with a “response.”

Secondly the church is only interested in issues concerning morality (you wrote “right and wrong”)? You are kidding right? The North American mainstream churches (even the peripheral congregations) are apolitical? They never wade into political discourse? Please. What about the Women’s Christian Temperance Union movement in Canada or the clear pulpit-based rhetoric delivered by French-Canadian priests/bishops during WWI or Aberhart’s social Gospel (Social Credit) or the current same-sex lobbying initiative spearheaded by David Mainse’s ministry? How do rationalize this obvious and irrefutable historical evidence that clearly refutes you erroneous supposition?

Lastly, “right” and “left” locations on the political spectrum do contain elements of religious philosophy within their ideological makeup. Wouldn’t an orthodox conservative –in the Burkain vein - acknowledge the role of the Christian church in society? Wouldn’t that same Burkian conservative further advocate its importance in political philosophy due to its traditional placement in societal and political matters? Don’t answer that, it was rhetorical. Institutionalized religion is a political creature and as such, it is linked to legislative initiatives, secular decisions and judicial rulings – to say otherwise is woefully naïve.

PS. Thanks for the welcome.

Putz – nice cheerleading.

[Dayseed]

Robair Robair:

I, like over 40% of Canadians, am Catholic. I am also a member of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization that raises funds for local charities.

You singlled out the Catholic Church in your first post, so how about we stick with that.

Catholics are almost as well known for boozing as the Irish, or Canadians in general for beer drinking. When I'm working a Knights event, whether it be a poker derby, snowmobile rally, pancake breakfast, bingo or whatever, there is plenty of drink to go around. We get half cut and usually raise a lot of money for charity.

FANTASTIC LESSON! I am rebuked on the Catholic view of alcohol because you and the rest of your Knights of Columbus are slobbering drunks? Say, that was a very informative lesson about how I don't understand the Catholic view on alcohol and it's consumption. I'm also very pleased to understand that you haven't any qualms about getting smashed and say, riding snowmobiles and taking money for it. I can only imagine a priest giving a sermon on the ills of NOT handing over money at a poker tourney. Yes, quite the 'lesson' that I'm getting...

No academic refutations? Nothing of a historical nature? Just you and your drunken examples are all I'm going to get?

Hmmm, a piss-poor example indeed. Or should I say, "pissed"-poor? Much like the Catholic masses I have attended.

[Robair]

Dayseed Dayseed:

I am rebuked on the Catholic view of alcohol because you and the rest of your Knights of Columbus are slobbering drunks? Say, that was a very informative lesson about how I don't understand the Catholic view on alcohol and it's consumption. I'm also very pleased to understand that you haven't any qualms about getting smashed and say, riding snowmobiles and taking money for it. I can only imagine a priest giving a sermon on the ills of NOT handing over money at a poker tourney. Yes, quite the 'lesson' that I'm getting...

Poker derby. You ride snowmobiles from checkpoint to checkpoint, drawing a card at each stop. At the end of the day, the best card wins. The Knights run the checkpoints and the ceremonies (or whatever you wanna call them) at the end. We have the occasional beer while running the checkpoints, we don't get smashed and ride snowmobiles. Your Anne Coulter style of debate and argue pisses me off.

You started a thread asking if the Catholic Church in Canada is dead. 43% of Canadians are Catholic. Debate that. Better yet, go debate yourself, you are a waste of my time.

I've reatracted my 'welcome'.

[Mustang1]

Robair,

That’s it? That’s the extent of your rebuttal abilities? Wow. Oh, since you are scurrying away, I should remind you that you’ve yet to address my salient questions. Perhaps one shouldn’t call into question another’s knowledge base before critically self-evaluating their own? Oh well, I’ve seen worse. Thanks for the dodge…believe me; I’ve seen it before.