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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:28 pm
 


Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:
Give Israel to the Arabs. What an EXCELLENT idea! Yeah Saladin, that's just what the world needs, another Arab country. I'm sure it would be a resounding success too. Just like all the others.


No kidding. The Arab world is a cesspool of repression, hatred, poverty, and hopelessness. The Arabs blame the Jews for all of their own shortcomings when their real problems lie with themselves.

Reminds me of an old joke from after the 1973 war:

Q: Why can't the Arabs defeat Israel?

A: Because Israel has two million Jews and the Arabs don't have any!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:29 pm
 


Isreal / Palistine history lesson..? Informative link?

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:43 pm
 


BeaverBill BeaverBill:
Isreal / Palistine history lesson..? Informative link?

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html


Good info and solid history. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:46 pm
 


http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

"Not so brief" brief history of Isreal/Palistine


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:51 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
BeaverBill BeaverBill:
Isreal / Palistine history lesson..? Informative link?

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html


Good info and solid history. Thank you.


Good info and solid History? I can see it to be anti-Muslim and pro-Israel, take a look at some scholarly journals of insight before you decide that it's "Good info and solid History" Just because something leans in your favour doesn't mean that it's true.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:56 pm
 


Post some links so all can read, I'm interested in reading contradicting facts. Those are the only two links, on a google search, that I've bothered to run through, the second being "less bias" and more concerned with facts it seems.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:14 pm
 


BeaverBill BeaverBill:
Post some links so all can read, I'm interested in reading contradicting facts. Those are the only two links, on a google search, that I've bothered to run through, the second being "less bias" and more concerned with facts it seems.


I'm sure Saladinwhateverthefuckhispighumpingnameis can offer something that I'm sure will make us all go 8O


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:20 pm
 


Well whatever he would post it would be the complete opposite of the above link. People need to look at it on both sides although I agree that Israel is surrounded by hostile Muslims and they have a right to defend themselves but blindly following biased information won't do anyone good.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:21 pm
 


Tman1 Tman1:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
BeaverBill BeaverBill:
Isreal / Palistine history lesson..? Informative link?

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html


Good info and solid history. Thank you.


Good info and solid History? I can see it to be anti-Muslim and pro-Israel, take a look at some scholarly journals of insight before you decide that it's "Good info and solid History" Just because something leans in your favour doesn't mean that it's true.


Israel whomped the crap out of the Arabs every time the Arabs started a war with them. Not a scholarly summary, I know, but never the less, it is accurate. I also agree that the only mistakes Israel has made with the Arabs is when Israel has been concilliatory.

There is a cultural aspect of the Arabs that is not part of Islam (in fairness) that when an enemy gives you something it is a sign of weakness.

When Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt the Arabs all cheered and celebrated a victory while we saw Israel trying to be nice.

These guys see negotiations as a sign of weakness. We value peace and consider negotiating to preserve it a virtue - they see negotiations as a way to buy time until an eventual victory.

Arabs exist in a whole different world than we do and it is different from East Asian Muslims. Pakistanis negotiate in good faith and so do Indonesians and Persians so please understand my comments are a cultural comment on Arabs, not Muslims.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:26 pm
 


Whose disagreeing with you? I merely mentioned the fallacies in the link as being biased with no tie in between the two. As well, Persians and Pakistanis are different ethnicities than Arabs but Muslim culture is what dominates them today. Muslim culture is Arab culture and has been for thousands of years so whether you make a comment on the culture you are making it on Muslims anyways.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:15 pm
 


Tman1 Tman1:
Well whatever he would post it would be the complete opposite of the above link.


It would probably be illegal, too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:22 pm
 


Tman1 Tman1:
Whose disagreeing with you?


That was a general disclaimer not aimed at you - I know you understand what I'm saying but there's other folks who'll react to my eye-roll :roll: and know who they are. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:29 pm
 


Tman1 Tman1:
Muslim culture is Arab culture and has been for thousands of years so whether you make a comment on the culture you are making it on Muslims anyways.


Arab culture and Islam are not the same. The Arabs have been around for millenia while Islam is a recent thing. Indonesians, for instance, do not generally go for the Wahhabi insanity while the Wahhabi nuttiness fits perfectly with the Arab mind.

Try it like this:

Hawai'ians tend to be Methodist, yet Hawai'ian culture is dramatically different from the culture of Southeast England that spawned Wesleyan Methodism. Yet both groups are Methodist and both groups will show up at Annual Conference and sing the same hymns and say the same prayers.

Islam is all over the world anymore and it exists in different cultures. Granted, the Arab influence on Islam is far greater than the English influence on Methodism, but I think you get my point.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:42 pm
 


Ohhhhh Imam....hahaha Iman, Bowie..hahahaa. Just kidding, I knew.

See there's that religion thing rearing it's ugly head again. :wink: Doesn't matter in what context either it always seems to be right in the middle of all the BS goin' down these days.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:11 pm
 


On http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

I'm not going to dissect the whole of this site's history. That would take a book.

I do want to draw attention to places where the author is making opinion serve in the place of fact.

$1:
From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain.


Based on what he says here, the author is going to attempt to treat all of today's Isreal and Jordan as one 'Palestine'.

However, the Palestine mandate was NOT one nation or one state. It was simply a League of Nations mandate zone. There's no reason to assume the lines drawn on the map in 1917 corresponded to anything substantive. Nor is there any reason to accept those lines over any other set.

$1:
Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine.


The fact that the British 'looked favorably" on something is hardly a reason for anyone accepting that it should have been done. The British also "looked favorably" on Jewish homelands in Uganda and Madagascar.

Also basing a claim to land on the views of a European Imperial power is hardly the surest grounds in a new era that doesn't highly value European Imperialism.

The League of Nations mandates were intended to give European powers limited, basic influence in encouraging eventual self-rule of indigeneous people, not necessarily including the project of establishing various people in ethnic homelands.

$1:
...In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.


Hence, it was the British's fault that Jordan was lost to Palestine. But since Palestine was never a nation or state, then how can you violate the political integrity of a people when they are not a political community?

Or to put it another way, who could be cheated out of their right to the other side of the line when nobody has any real claim to it at all, (except the British, via the League of Nations, in trust for the indigeneous)?

The percentages are a nice touch it has the effect of making things seem inherantly unfair. However, if you look at the extent of habitable area, the two sides are more equal.---But why even be equal? it seems nice to say, two sides, therefore 50-50. But the relevant populations were not the same size.

$1:
Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out.


"Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism..." is a nice phrase. Especially the use of "incite". It makes the Arabs seem irrational and violent. ---Which, of course, maybe they are. As I said, I'm not trying to disprove the author's positions, just drawing attention to what he's doing and how.

The phrase "launched never-ending murderous attacks" is obviously inflammatory, and it makes the Arabs seem just a bit unhuman, again.

The effect of this is to create a picture where the innocent Jews were there in Palestine, where the British cut off 75% of the territory and then the irrational and ungrateful people of the 75% started groundless attacks on the Jews of the 25%.

True? Perhaps it's possible. But it looks more like self-interested propaganda for a position than a reliable history of a region.


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