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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:09 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Lemmy Lemmy:

**Mod edit**


If JJ had said that, he'd have another warning. Funny how selective the warning 'system' works around here. :lol:

I got a warning and deservedly so. But I didn't start it.

Good for you but where is mine :?:
:( :( :(


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:10 am
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
But I didn't start it.


About the same argument my 8 year old would use. It doesn't fly here either.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:11 am
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
About the same argument my 8 year old would use. It doesn't fly here either.

The instigator always gets the extra 2 minutes, no?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:40 pm
 


Lemmy Lemmy:
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
About the same argument my 8 year old would use. It doesn't fly here either.

The instigator always gets the extra 2 minutes, no?


I thought it was the 3rd man in?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:59 pm
 


OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Lemmy Lemmy:

**Mod edit**


If JJ had said that, he'd have another warning. Funny how selective the warning 'system' works around here. :lol:


Another right-wing conspiracy theory down the tubes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:07 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Another right-wing conspiracy theory down the tubes.


Yeah, but I think we need to look into the conspiracy of these so-called 'tubes' that everything keeps going down.

Why is it nothing comes UP these tubes? Hmmmm? THAT'S the REAL conspiracy!

:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:35 pm
 


I've seen things come up the tubes. Terrible things. Things that keep me awake at night. Screaming. Pray PRAY! that you never have to see the things that come UP the tubes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:41 pm
 


Cronut burgers come up the tubes.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:56 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Cronut burgers come up the tubes.


SWEET JESUS!!! MY EYES!!!! 8O

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:22 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Cronut burgers come up the tubes.


SWEET JESUS!!! MY EYES!!!! 8O



i agree. Processed cheese is gross


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:08 am
 


Now Bart put that UP your Tube and see how it goes. :P


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:09 am
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Cronut burgers come up the tubes.


SWEET JESUS!!! MY EYES!!!! 8O

Image


the ummm beef patty looks like pulled pork to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:28 pm
 


As a postscript to this thread, let me note that I wrote it as part of my larger concerns about the direction Canada is heading in. For years, we've been hearing about how the market is the solution to just about all our woes. If we cut corporate taxes, sign free trade deals, and open more and more of our economy to foreign ownership, then the rising tide will lift all our boats. This has been our mantra for the last 20-plus years, and as Canadian writer Rudyard Griffiths, it's become a pretty broad consensus not just in Canada but elsewhere.

However, based on everything I see the results of this consensus have been very mixed. Many of the jobs that have been created are more uncertain and part-time, and the implicit message has often been that Canadian wages are too high, and that they should be reduced so that we can better compete. The implication almost seems to be as though Canadians are lazy, ought to work longer hours for less benefits, and be thankful for it. In the "dead money" article I cited in the first post, Canadian businesses stated that they were hedging their bets because they don't think there's enough demand out there to warrant more investment. What I'm left wondering is what all the lower-paying, more precarious jobs that are now being created will do to demand.

And labour isn't the only issue-as I noted before, we continue to be reliant on natural resources above all else, which are themselves dependent on commodity prices. Even the likes of J.J. McCullough have noted it, and he's not exactly a devoted NDPer. This in spite of all the tax cuts and trade deals, which don't seem to have done much for our productivity.

The irony of it all is that I'm now hearing things coming from ostensibly conservative businesspeople, politicians and columnists that you'd normally associate with the political left. Pundits like Diane Francis and John Manley (the Canadian Council of Chief Executives leader who I cited before) are talking about the problems of foreign ownership and the need for national champions, channelling their inner Mel Hurtig. The late great Conservative Peter Lougheed was quoted in one of Hurtig's books in saying that NAFTA ought to be reviewed. Oilsands executives are urging Ottawa to "protect" Canadian ownership of the oilsands. Preston Manning has been a strong advocate of green conservatism, and has been on record as saying that Albertans need a "wakeup call" on the environment when it comes to energy development (I was in the audience at the 2009 forum in Cochrane where he said it, and I'd post a link, but I can't seem to find one).

So, because of all this, I'm really wondering whether Canada needs to shift gears somehow, particularly considering just how mixed the results of this consensus have been. The reason I've been hesitant to really mention it before now is that I often get the impression that daring to question this so-called consensus will get the questioner pilloried as some Che Guevara-wannabe who advocates jacking every tax rate up to 75%, nationalizing all our industries and implementing some sort of modern-day Politburo. To my mind, that would be pure insanity-I'm not really a fan of Milton Friedman, but I absolutely loathe the likes of Guevara, Mao and Lenin. Marxism just plain doesn't work, as the global collapse of Communism has shown.

Besides, the last thing I'd want to do is demonize businesspeople or the wealthy as a homogenous bloc, particularly when many companies can and should be applauded for such things as green initiatives and corporate social responsibility, to say nothing of the charitable donations various wealthy individuals have made. Not to mention that I'm also a staunch admirer of Preston Manning and many elements of the original Reform movement. Any change we make has to recognize the need for profit-making, individual initiative and risk-taking.

But Manning and other people on the right are now making many of the same points I'm describing here. My own view is that governments and markets, as well as individual effort and collective action, can often play to each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses. In a healthy balance, they can accomplish much more than either one can by themselves. There is, I suspect, much more common ground than anyone realizes.

I just wish I knew how we could get there, particularly when Canadian politics seems all the more polarized these days.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:53 am
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:
But Manning and other people on the right are now making many of the same points I'm describing here. My own view is that governments and markets, as well as individual effort and collective action, can often play to each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses. In a healthy balance, they can accomplish much more than either one can by themselves. There is, I suspect, much more common ground than anyone realizes.

I just wish I knew how we could get there, particularly when Canadian politics seems all the more polarized these days.


This "new" consensus you refer to replaced an older one that I found erred in the opposite direction, towards government ownership and control, social engineering, hubristic megaprojects, economic and cultural protectionism, paternalistic intervention in our lives, and, most of all, an attitude that businesses and individuals should succeed or fail not on their own merits, but through the grace of politicians and bureaucrats. The citizen as courtier.

I think this new consensus is better than the one that replaced it. I'm sure you believe the opposite is true. I hope though that what you're seeking is something other than a simply turning the clock back to Trudeau Liberalism.

If centre-left or left politicians would be content simply to focus on re-distributing wealth and regulating big business, I'd find them much less objectionable. But give them power and they just can't resist the urge to tinker and try to solve long-standing and complex social problems through blunt, coercive policies and programs that impinge unreasonably on individual freedom. The Reagans and Thatchers of the world came to power precisely because people in these societies tired of being lab rats for these technocratic meddlers.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:47 pm
 


Individualist Individualist:
This "new" consensus you refer to replaced an older one that I found erred in the opposite direction, towards government ownership and control, social engineering, hubristic megaprojects, economic and cultural protectionism, paternalistic intervention in our lives, and, most of all, an attitude that businesses and individuals should succeed or fail not on their own merits, but through the grace of politicians and bureaucrats. The citizen as courtier.

I think this new consensus is better than the one that replaced it. I'm sure you believe the opposite is true. I hope though that what you're seeking is something other than a simply turning the clock back to Trudeau Liberalism.

If centre-left or left politicians would be content simply to focus on re-distributing wealth and regulating big business, I'd find them much less objectionable. But give them power and they just can't resist the urge to tinker and try to solve long-standing and complex social problems through blunt, coercive policies and programs that impinge unreasonably on individual freedom. The Reagans and Thatchers of the world came to power precisely because people in these societies tired of being lab rats for these technocratic meddlers.


I might swear by Trudeau when it comes to bilingualism, the Charter of Rights, multiculturalism and the social safety net, but I swear at him when it comes to his ghastly financial mismanagement, his general fumbling of the economy (which even John Ralston Saul criticized), the National Energy Program and all the other ways he crapped on Western Canada, the 1969 White Paper and his mishandling of the Quebec issue. There's a reason his name is mud among the Franco-Quebecois. And with my admiration for Preston Manning (I was voting for him in spirit when I cast my first ballot for the Canadian Alliance in 2000), I know full well that change was badly needed at the time.

What I'd prefer is to try and blend the best of both worlds, as much as we can. That's why I talk about how governments and markets, individual and collective action, which complements each other's strengths and covers each other's weaknesses.

In terms of regulating business, I'd like to think that several of the things I'd like to see happen would in fact be welcomed by the private sector. Some of these would include a much more streamlined and simplified tax code (businesses shouldn't have to waste so much time and manpower on processing their taxes), a single national securities regulator (where businesses wanting to get investment in Canada would only have to file one set of paperwork, instead of one for every province they have to deal with) and a much clearer set of criteria on when foreign takeovers of Canadian enterprises would be allowed (conservative critics have been just as loud as any leftist in complaining about how the murky Investment Canada rules pretty much allow the government to block or allow takeovers at will). This wouldn't apply to investment made to build up Canadian businesses without taking them over, of course-that could, by and large, be left up to capital markets to worry about. Many of my friends who own small businesses have confirmed to me that what business likes, more than anything else, is consistency and clarity.

Your point about technocrats and social engineers in government is well-taken. On the other hand, writers like Richard Gwyn and John Ralston Saul have written about what they view as the social engineering of conservative governments, and of the technocrats that they believe run organizations like the World Bank and the WTO.

Political technocrats and social engineers can be shown the door when citizens get tired of them, as you noted with the swings to support leaders like Reagan and Thatcher. But what about the leadership of the larger organizations who make decisions that affect millions of people but have no accountability? It's stuff like that which gives the Hugo Chavezes of the world their ammunition. The results of the new consensus, as I've already noted, seem to me to have been very mixed overall.


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