[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Torontonians are tired of being "taxed to death".

How much more are you willing to pay to keep these services you don't want cut?

The status quo isn't working. You're 700+ million in the hole, so you can cut services and have a minimal tax increase or do nothing and have a massive property tax increase and raise user fees, etc.

Would you prefer a 8-10% property tax hike in order to maintain services as they currently are?

You're way off base.

1) The $774 million you state is grossly inflated. It's already been revised to $443 million.

2) Even the exaggerated $774M is not a massive figure requiring a massive elimination of essential services. The city's budget is $10 Billion. Even the exaggerated gap would only be 7.75%

3)Rob Ford has introduced about $200 million in NEW SPENDING just to implement his anti-transit and anti-bike agendas (cancelling Transit City contracts and removing bike lanes). Not to mention that cancelling the other 3 transit city lines means no relief on already burdened transit routes, including higher operating costs.Is any of this really essential spending in a time of supposed crisis and austerity that requires the elimination of over 1000 police and and fire personnel? Really? Really?

3)The city's main tax - property tax is not set to decrease under Ford. In fact, he explicity stated that he has not ruled out increasing it by 3% So exactly what tax savings are you expecting? He is also toying with the ideas of more user fees (for example for excess garbage)

4) Torontonians - contrary to belief are not "taxed to death". The City of Toronto has one of the lowest property taxes in Southern Ontario and THE lowest property tax in the GTA. I bet if tax rate had been one penny a year and Miller had rasied it to two pennies per year, you would still be shrieking that you're being "taxed to death". You're not. Get over it.

5) You imply that keeping spending money in your pocket is preferable to having clean water, clean streets, and emergency services that come when you call them. Do you really think that? These are the fundamental services that separate the first-world from the third-world. If they somehow magically become too expensive to maintain, we need to think of new ways to ensure they remain, not eliminate them.

NEW THIS WEEK ON THE FORD FOLLY FILES:

* Doug Ford celebrates his ignorance by proudly bragging that he's never heard of Canadas most prolific and world-renowned author (surprised?), then tells citizens to either run for office or keep their mouths shut:

On Friday last week, the Mayor Ford held a press conference to invite all residents of Toronto to voice their opinion on what services to cut and retain. "Come and let me know what you think – the average taxpayer out there – what are we doing right, what are we doing wrong. I want to hear from the people and I encourage them to come," said the Mayor. However, Margaret Atwood, one of Canada's most prolific and famous living authors and long-time advocate of public libraries was lambasted by councilor Doug Ford yesterday for doing just such a thing. Atwood had criticised Ford's proposal to shut down libraries and the older Ford brother's patently false statements about Toronto having "more libraries per capita than any city in the world" and that there are "more libraries than Timmie's" in Toronto. In response, Doug Ford proudly advised the media that he'd never heard of the internationally celebrated author. He further stated that if Atwood wished to voice an opinion on city policy, she should run or office.

*Mayor Ford shows he's a class act by breaking the law, and flipping a six-year-old child the bird

A local Toronto resident recently revealied that Mayor Rob Ford gave her and six-year-old daughter the middle finger and mouthed obsenities at them in traffic on Tuesday night. Around 9pm Tuesday, the mother and daughter were in downtown traffic and found themselves behind the Mayor's beige mini-van, unmistakenly marked with the personalized "ROBFORD" license plate that announces His Worship's presence. The mayor was talking on his hand-held cell phone while driving, something the family have always disapproved of. Ottilie Mason said that she and her child play a game of thumbs up or thumbs down when they like or dislike something, so they gave Mayor Ford the thumbs down and mouthed the words “get off your cellphone” when they both stopped along side eachother at the Dundas and Spadina intersection. Mason, who said her nanny was also a witness, said Ford then gave them the finger. Mason then says she rolled down the window and shouted “get off your cellphone” and Ford again gave the finger and mouthed swear words through his rolled-up window.

Today, Ford's office confirmed that the Mayor was at the intersection of Dundas and Spadina at the time indicated and that he was in fact driving while using a hand-held phone. Ford denies making any rude gestures or comments however, attributing the incident to "a misunderstanding."

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Torontonians are tired of being "taxed to death".

How much more are you willing to pay to keep these services you don't want cut?

The status quo isn't working. You're 700+ million in the hole, so you can cut services and have a minimal tax increase or do nothing and have a massive property tax increase and raise user fees, etc.

Would you prefer a 8-10% property tax hike in order to maintain services as they currently are?

You're way off base.

1) The $774 million you state is grossly inflated. It's already been revised to $443 million.

2) Even the exaggerated $774M is not a massive figure requiring a massive elimination of essential services. The city's budget is $10 Billion. Even the exaggerated gap would only be 7.75%

3)Rob Ford has introduced about $200 million in NEW SPENDING just to implement his anti-transit and anti-bike agendas (cancelling Transit City contracts and removing bike lanes). Not to mention that cancelling the other 3 transit city lines means no relief on already burdened transit routes, including higher operating costs.Is any of this really essential spending in a time of supposed crisis and austerity that requires the elimination of over 1000 police and and fire personnel? Really? Really?

3)The city's main tax - property tax is not set to decrease under Ford. In fact, he explicity stated that he has not ruled out increasing it by 3% So exactly what tax savings are you expecting? He is also toying with the ideas of more user fees (for example for excess garbage)

4) Torontonians - contrary to belief are not "taxed to death". The City of Toronto has one of the lowest property taxes in Southern Ontario and THE lowest property tax in the GTA. I bet if tax rate had been one penny a year and Miller had rasied it to two pennies per year, you would still be shrieking that you're being "taxed to death". You're not. Get over it.

5) You imply that keeping spending money in your pocket is preferable to having clean water, clean streets, and emergency services that come when you call them. Do you really think that? These are the fundamental services that separate the first-world from the third-world. If they somehow magically become too expensive to maintain, we need to think of new ways to ensure they remain, not eliminate them.

NEW THIS WEEK ON THE FORD FOLLY FILES:

* Doug Ford celebrates his ignorance by proudly bragging that he's never heard of Canadas most prolific and world-renowned author (surprised?), then tells citizens to either run for office or keep their mouths shut:

On Friday last week, the Mayor Ford held a press conference to invite all residents of Toronto to voice their opinion on what services to cut and retain. "Come and let me know what you think – the average taxpayer out there – what are we doing right, what are we doing wrong. I want to hear from the people and I encourage them to come," said the Mayor. However, Margaret Atwood, one of Canada's most prolific and famous living authors and long-time advocate of public libraries was lambasted by councilor Doug Ford yesterday for doing just such a thing. Atwood had criticised Ford's proposal to shut down libraries and the older Ford brother's patently false statements about Toronto having "more libraries per capita than any city in the world" and that there are "more libraries than Timmie's" in Toronto. In response, Doug Ford proudly advised the media that he'd never heard of the internationally celebrated author. He further stated that if Atwood wished to voice an opinion on city policy, she should run or office.

*Mayor Ford shows he's a class act by breaking the law, and flipping a six-year-old child the bird

A local Toronto resident recently revealied that Mayor Rob Ford gave her and six-year-old daughter the middle finger and mouthed obsenities at them in traffic on Tuesday night. Around 9pm Tuesday, the mother and daughter were in downtown traffic and found themselves behind the Mayor's beige mini-van, unmistakenly marked with the personalized "ROBFORD" license plate that announces His Worship's presence. The mayor was talking on his hand-held cell phone while driving, something the family have always disapproved of. Ottilie Mason said that she and her child play a game of thumbs up or thumbs down when they like or dislike something, so they gave Mayor Ford the thumbs down and mouthed the words “get off your cellphone” when they both stopped along side eachother at the Dundas and Spadina intersection. Mason, who said her nanny was also a witness, said Ford then gave them the finger. Mason then says she rolled down the window and shouted “get off your cellphone” and Ford again gave the finger and mouthed swear words through his rolled-up window.

Today, Ford's office confirmed that the Mayor was at the intersection of Dundas and Spadina at the time indicated and that he was in fact driving while using a hand-held phone. Ford denies making any rude gestures or comments however, attributing the incident to "a misunderstanding."

Nice dodge. I don't need you to hear your anti-Ford rhetoric.

Answer the question.

How much more are you willing to pay?

How would you solve this debt the City has?

It's nice to come forth and say everything BAD Ford is doing, so how about answering the question and let us know how you'd do things better.

[fifeboy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I found it slow compared to cabbing it.

A cab is a commercial vehicle, not a private vehicle. One cab transports many people over the day, does not need parking and helps keep a number of cars off the road.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Nice dodge. I don't need you to hear your anti-Ford rhetoric.

Answer the question.

How much more are you willing to pay?

How would you solve this debt the City has?

It's nice to come forth and say everything BAD Ford is doing, so how about answering the question and let us know how you'd do things better.

DODGE?!?!?!? Buddy, what don't you get? I dispute the very premise that significant cuts or increases are needed. Ford is not just rolling back David Miller's spending initiatives, HE IS ROLLING OUT ROB FORD spending initiatives. And his proposed cuts to essential services are meant to pay for his spending agenda, not to save you money.

You are the one doing the dodging - I listed 5 reasons why the propsed massive gutting of municipal government is unecessary. You dodged all of them (I suspect you didn't read them). You dodged explanation of how Ford's New Spending initiatives are justified given the cuts implmented elsewhere.

I asked you where you, the taxpayer, expect to see savings since taxes will either stay the same or increase, user fees will mostly increase, and services will drastically diminish. You have yet to answer any of those.

To answer your second question directly, alot of it can be solved with just tinkering - minor improvements in efficiency, minor increases to fines, minor changes to service etc. Most of the solutions will come from the Provincial and Federal level where there is money. Giving cities a 1% cut of GST and/or gas tax revenues for example has been demanded for along time but has fallen on deaf ears in Ottawa. After famously declaring for years that "Toronto has a spending problem, not a revenue problem" Ford took a $8bn gift horse from the province and shot it in the mouth. But not before he eliminated $60 M in City-raised revenues by canceling the vehicle transfer tax. Then he asked the province to make up the shortfall with provincial taxpayer money in a "brother, can you lend me some tax revenue" moment and got told by Province to go F himself.

You should note that Toronto's budget has been in the red since 1998 when the Harris govt amalgamated the city and put all 2.6. million residents under the "care" of Mel Lastman.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

DODGE?!?!?!? Buddy, what don't you get? I dispute the very premise that significant cuts or increases are needed. Ford is not just rolling back David Miller's spending initiatives, HE IS ROLLING OUT ROB FORD spending initiatives. And his proposed cuts to essential services are meant to pay for his spending agenda, not to save you money.

You are the one doing the dodging - I listed 5 reasons why the propsed massive gutting of municipal government is unecessary. You dodged all of them (I suspect you didn't read them). You dodged explanation of how Ford's New Spending initiatives are justified given the cuts implmented elsewhere.

I asked you where you, the taxpayer, expect to see savings since taxes will either stay the same or increase, user fees will mostly increase, and services will drastically diminish. You have yet to answer any of those.

To answer your second question directly, alot of it can be solved with just tinkering - minor improvements in efficiency, minor increases to fines, minor changes to service etc. Most of the solutions will come from the Provincial and Federal level where there is money. Giving cities a 1% cut of GST and/or gas tax revenues for example has been demanded for along time but has fallen on deaf ears in Ottawa. After famously declaring for years that "Toronto has a spending problem, not a revenue problem" Ford took a $8bn gift horse from the province and shot it in the mouth. But not before he eliminated $60 M in City-raised revenues by canceling the vehicle transfer tax. Then he asked the province to make up the shortfall with provincial taxpayer money in a "brother, can you lend me some tax revenue" moment and got told by Province to go F himself.

You should note that Toronto's budget has been in the red since 1998 when the Harris govt amalgamated the city and put all 2.6. million residents under the "care" of Mel Lastman.

You dispute the premise that cuts or increases are needed? Good for you. I'm glad you don't run the City I live in. BTW, I don't live in Toronto anymore but did for 23 years. I currently work in Toronto.

The City if Toronto has to do two things. It has to lower it's operating costs and raise taxes and user fees.

The City hired a neutral source to look at the City in detail to find out where they can find some savings and efficiencies. That's how it's done. You find where there may be waste and ways to improve and you proceed from there.

I'm not looking to save a few pennies, never said that I was looking for savings, I'm looking for the City to be run well, efficient and on budget. Period.

As for the new spending and new programs, these ideas were overwhelmingly supported by the voters, hence him being voted in...that includes killing some of Millers terrible plans and spending more to get things right.


It's time to operate the City within it's means

[mentalfloss]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yep, the whiny Lefties in Toronto just can't handle the fact that their focal point of hatred and disdain got voted in.

I guess they will just have to carry on reading the anti-Ford drivel daily in the Toronto Star and Globe.

You think the Sun hasn't made any criticisms of Ford?

They're actually dogging him with the same lines as the rest of the media. And good on them for it.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BF BF:

3) He is also toying with the ideas of more user fees (for example for excess garbage)

Don't tell me you have a problem with that. Hell, I've lived in places that only let you put out so many bags of garbage a week and YOU have to buy the special coloured garbage bags. Anything beyond what you're allowed and the city/town billed you for the rest.
Make the average person pay for the garbage they produce and they WILL produce less garbage.

[raydan]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Make the average person pay for the garbage they produce and they WILL produce less garbage.

The problem with that is people will dump their gargage in other people's yard or out in sticks on the side of the roads.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

raydan raydan:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Make the average person pay for the garbage they produce and they WILL produce less garbage.

The problem with that is people will dump their gargage in other people's yard or out in sticks on the side of the roads.

Huh, never had that problem where I lived.
As for those who might "drop it in the sticks", T.O is a long way form the sticks. It would cost them more in gas than it would in garbage fees.

[andyt]

Vancouver has that, and our regime is nothing like the Ford regime. Only makes sense to put pressure on people to reduce their garbage. Maybe the pro and anti cycling forces can get together and sing Kumbaya around garbage.

Which would actually make sense. I would like to see the environmental movement move more to showing the costs of environmental degredation, and how much industry is subsidized by treating the environment as a free lunch. Surely the righty tighties could get behind that, since it's fiscally responsible and anti-subsidy.

I think there's a Nobel waiting for an economist who can put an accurate value on the environment, so we can assess projects using that data.

[fifeboy]

andyt andyt:

Maybe the pro and anti cycling forces can get together and sing Kumbaya around garbage.

Just for your information:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=1793509807

[andyt]

[BeaverFever]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

BF BF:

3) He is also toying with the ideas of more user fees (for example for excess garbage)

Don't tell me you have a problem with that. Hell, I've lived in places that only let you put out so many bags of garbage a week and YOU have to buy the special coloured garbage bags. Anything beyond what you're allowed and the city/town billed you for the rest.
Make the average person pay for the garbage they produce and they WILL produce less garbage.

Kind of like what we already have in TO...you buy a standard-sized garbage bin issued by the city (available in 3 sizes). Any garbage bags that don't fit in the bin won't be picked up unless you buy a special tag for them. Everyone gets 4 free tags per year.


I don't have a problem with that concept per se, I'm just pointing out that the myth that rob ford is somehow putting money back in peoples pockets is a joke. Well all be paying the same taxes - but now have new fees on top of that. Also, it should be noted that in comparison to taxes, rich people don't mind paying user fees. They have lots of money to spend and when they want something theyre more likely to just fork over whatever the required payment is with little complaint. They just dont like paying taxes. So any time they can convert a tax to a fee they are satisfied, but this is usually harder for peole at the lower end of the pay scale.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BTW, I don't live in Toronto anymore but did for 23 years. I currently work in Toronto.

That explains alot. You, the Mayor, and Ford Nation are all this type - you want the high income that comes with working in Toronto but the bargain-basement prices of the low-service suburban communities. So instead you commute and you think that because you drive through our streets you are entitled to impose your values on those of us who live here. Maybe I'll start driving through your neigbourhood and then demand that you all remake your lives to accomodate me.

$1:

The City if Toronto has to do two things. It has to lower it's operating costs and raise taxes and user fees.

Rob Ford did not campaign on that promise. He said "no service cuts". He said the budget shortfall was due to "GRAVY" ie waste and perks.

$1:

The City hired a neutral source to look at the City in detail to find out where they can find some savings and efficiencies. That's how it's done. You find where there may be waste and ways to improve and you proceed from there.

Right. but the neutral source says theres very little waste, and mostly just core services.

$1:

I'm not looking to save a few pennies, never said that I was looking for savings, I'm looking for the City to be run well, efficient and on budget. Period.

So is everybody, but this has nothing to do with gutting core services.

As for the new spending and new programs, these ideas were overwhelmingly supported by the voters, hence him being voted in...that includes killing some of Millers terrible plans and spending more to get things right. But my question is: if we are in such a "crisis" and core services that everyone supports like libraries and flouridated drinking water are on the chopping block, why are spending new money controversial and frivoulous items like bike lanes??? Surely that can wait until the supposed "crisis" is over?

$1:

It's time to operate the City within it's means

In Canada, major cities typcially do not generate anywhere near the revenue thats required to support their population, and rely on provincial/federal funds so this a moot point. In order for Toronto to operate based only on what it can raise from its own property taxes and fees, and for Ford Nation to accept that level of taxation and fees as adequate (ie keep taxes amoung the lowest), toronto would look more like a First Nations reserve than a modern city.

As I've said before, most of the citys ongoing problems can only be solved a Queens Park, not City Hall and Ford is just bringing in new ones.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

BTW, I don't live in Toronto anymore but did for 23 years. I currently work in Toronto.

That explains alot. You, the Mayor, and Ford Nation are all this type - you want the high income that comes with working in Toronto but the bargain-basement prices of the low-service suburban communities. So instead you commute and you think that because you drive through our streets you are entitled to impose your values on those of us who live here. Maybe I'll start driving through your neigbourhood and then demand that you all remake your lives to accomodate me.

$1:

The City if Toronto has to do two things. It has to lower it's operating costs and raise taxes and user fees.

Rob Ford did not campaign on that promise. He said "no service cuts". He said the budget shortfall was due to "GRAVY" ie waste and perks.

$1:

The City hired a neutral source to look at the City in detail to find out where they can find some savings and efficiencies. That's how it's done. You find where there may be waste and ways to improve and you proceed from there.

Right. but the neutral source says theres very little waste, and mostly just core services.

$1:

I'm not looking to save a few pennies, never said that I was looking for savings, I'm looking for the City to be run well, efficient and on budget. Period.

So is everybody, but this has nothing to do with gutting core services.

As for the new spending and new programs, these ideas were overwhelmingly supported by the voters, hence him being voted in...that includes killing some of Millers terrible plans and spending more to get things right. But my question is: if we are in such a "crisis" and core services that everyone supports like libraries and flouridated drinking water are on the chopping block, why are spending new money controversial and frivoulous items like bike lanes??? Surely that can wait until the supposed "crisis" is over?

$1:

It's time to operate the City within it's means

In Canada, major cities typcially do not generate anywhere near the revenue thats required to support their population, and rely on provincial/federal funds so this a moot point. In order for Toronto to operate based only on what it can raise from its own property taxes and fees, and for Ford Nation to accept that level of taxation and fees as adequate (ie keep taxes amoung the lowest), toronto would look more like a First Nations reserve than a modern city.

As I've said before, most of the citys ongoing problems can only be solved a Queens Park, not City Hall and Ford is just bringing in new ones.