[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Bootlegga, I think your aportioning blame to the wrong people. Africa is the only place in the world where the standard of living and GDP have actually dropped since the end of colonialism.
They were better off with the Europeans. Now they have oppression from within. Great freedom they gained.

Save your leftwing rhetoric and look logically at the problem. Lets face it, until they sort out their corrupt regimes, pumping anymore money into Africa is just like pissing in the wind.

Please save ME your right wing rhetoric about how much better they were with the Europeans running things. Aren't you supposed to be talking about liberating them from the same warlords we supported a decade or two ago?

Yeah, I suppose systemic racism and economic dependence were all good things. How much of that GDP did they actually see? Not much, just enough to keep the diamond mines or oil wells flowing. After all, we have to "educate the noble savage" don't we? Please...we made this mess 130 years ago and it's time to fix it.

And I never said anything about tossing them money. I simply said that we should pay the debts and actually engage in some of this 'trade liberaliztion' that the Brits and Yanks talk about so much (but don't actually follow through on). If western nations actually practiced "free trade" like the Americans are so proud of, a lot of these nations might actually be able to pay back these loans themselves. But instead, we subsidize farmers and industries to the point that they can compete with foreign products, which end up costing more because of shipping and/or taxes/duties that we impose on them. We only have to look at softwood lumber or the BSE problem as two examples of US protectionism, and these are the tip of the iceberg. The Americans are like the Japanese. They want you to open your market to their goods, but do ther damnest to prevent you from selling in their domestic market. Free trade my ass...

This has nothing to do with left wing or right wing politics. You go and kick an anthill over and then get mad at the ants for taking too long to rebuild the hill, even though you actively deny them any ability to do so and somehow it's THEIR fault? Pull your head out of your arse! Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it...I suppose it's China's fault that it took them almost 200 years to prosper after the Opium wars and Boxer Rebellion?

[Motorcycleboy]

PrairieChick PrairieChick:

We won't ever get it back anyways, so we might as well look politically correct in the process.

Good point PrairieChick.

[Motorcycleboy]

That's right Bootlega, blame the big, bad, white man and his oppression for everything.

Eyebrock is right. The problem with Africa is....

Africans.

People there starve not because of what westerners may or may not have done 100 years ago (and I would argue that colonialism wasn't all bad. It brought primitive, stone-age societies into the modern age without them having to suffer 2000 years of evolution like we did for one thing...but I digress) but because of the corruption of their leaders.

The solution to almost every problem afflicting Africa lies within their own society. AIDS for instance, could be controlled if their societies would adhere to monogomy and abstinence. Unfortunately, that's almost unheard of on the Dark Continent.

Poverty could be reduced if maniacs like Robert Mugabe didn't declare war on all Zimbabweans who oppose him. Zimbabwe was actually quite affluent and fed itself when the farms were white owned. But Mugabe's expulsions of the white families who owned those farms and made them productive has caused a famine to ravage that country for the last few years. But somehow Boot, you figure that's MY fault?

Fuck that. I'm not responsible because some ignorant, third-world, clown who still thinks the world is flat gets into power and declares war on his own people. And I don't want to pay for it. Especially when I consider that most of the funds I send will end up in some despot's pocket anyway.

Bono and Geldof can go over and sing "kumbaya" all they want. I'm spending my money on steaks and beers this summer.

I can do that, because I'm from a civilization that has figured out the importance of the rule of law, free trade and democracy. Surprisingly enough, we also have enough to eat here.

[Blue_Nose]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

That's right Bootlega, blame the big, bad, white man and his oppression for everything.

Eyebrock is right. The problem with Africa is....

Africans.

They aren't a bunch of monkeys, you dolt. I'd take stock of what you've actually contributed to our 'vastly superior' civilization before you continue tooting your own horn.

[hwacker]

blue_nose blue_nose:

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

That's right Bootlega, blame the big, bad, white man and his oppression for everything.

Eyebrock is right. The problem with Africa is....

Africans.

They aren't a bunch of monkeys, you dolt. I'd take stock of what you've actually contributed to our 'vastly superior' civilization before you continue tooting your own horn.

Well he makes alot of sense in his post, why should we come to the rescue every time. In disaster ok fine, but just hand outs it's like constant welfare when do the benefits run out.?

[Motorcycleboy]

blue_nose blue_nose:

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

That's right Bootlega, blame the big, bad, white man and his oppression for everything.

Eyebrock is right. The problem with Africa is....

Africans.

They aren't a bunch of monkeys, you dolt. I'd take stock of what you've actually contributed to our 'vastly superior' civilization before you continue tooting your own horn.

And where exactly, did I say they were monkeys? You suggested that may be the case, not me.

Suggesting they're monkeys is perhaps one of the most condescending and racist things I've seen anyone post on here for awhile. Maybe people down east think that way BlueNose, but if you're going to post with educated people in the rest of Canada, I suggest you become a little more worldly.

And how do you know what I have or haven't contributed to Western Civilization? Please, do enlighten us BlueNose.

[bootlegga]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

I can do that, because I'm from a civilization that has figured out the importance of the rule of law, free trade and democracy.

Free trade? How much free trade is there with the US? Or with Europe? Or Asia? Not very much. Just about everyone has trade quotas or tariffs on things from abroad. Just because we signed NAFTA with the Americans doesn't mean it actually happens. NAFTA simply removed tariffs on SOME trade goods, specifically the ones the US wants, not all of them.

[bootlegga]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

(and I would argue that colonialism wasn't all bad. It brought primitive, stone-age societies into the modern age without them having to suffer 2000 years of evolution like we did for one thing...but I digress)

Yes, I do agree that genocide and invasion by armed foreigners are a good thing. I mean, after all, what good are machine guns, battleships, planes, and poison gas if not to kill Africans with?

What's next, that Westerners coming to the Americas and slaughtering 9/10ths of the native population was good? If you think that subjugating Africa was a good thing, then you probably also agree with wiping out the Aztecs, the Incas and pretty much every other culture here in the Americas too...I mean they were Stone Age societies too right?

[BartSimpson]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

That's right Bootlega, blame the big, bad, white man and his oppression for everything.

Eyebrock is right. The problem with Africa is....

Africans.

People there starve not because of what westerners may or may not have done 100 years ago (and I would argue that colonialism wasn't all bad. It brought primitive, stone-age societies into the modern age without them having to suffer 2000 years of evolution like we did for one thing...but I digress) but because of the corruption of their leaders.

The solution to almost every problem afflicting Africa lies within their own society. AIDS for instance, could be controlled if their societies would adhere to monogomy and abstinence. Unfortunately, that's almost unheard of on the Dark Continent.

Poverty could be reduced if maniacs like Robert Mugabe didn't declare war on all Zimbabweans who oppose him. Zimbabwe was actually quite affluent and fed itself when the farms were white owned. But Mugabe's expulsions of the white families who owned those farms and made them productive has caused a famine to ravage that country for the last few years. But somehow Boot, you figure that's MY fault?

Fuck that. I'm not responsible because some ignorant, third-world, clown who still thinks the world is flat gets into power and declares war on his own people. And I don't want to pay for it. Especially when I consider that most of the funds I send will end up in some despot's pocket anyway.

Bono and Geldof can go over and sing "kumbaya" all they want. I'm spending my money on steaks and beers this summer.

I can do that, because I'm from a civilization that has figured out the importance of the rule of law, free trade and democracy. Surprisingly enough, we also have enough to eat here.

[ridenrain]

Africans need to clean up their own problems before we give them more money. We can help by loosing the trade restrictions on African Farmers but good luck convincing France or much of Europe to take that produce.
Motorcycleboy & BartSimpson have it right.

[BartSimpson]

bootlegga bootlegga:

If you think that subjugating Africa was a good thing, then you probably also agree with wiping out the Aztecs, the Incas and pretty much every other culture here in the Americas too...I mean they were Stone Age societies too right?

Most Hopi and Navajo think that the Spanish wiping out the Aztecs saved them from extinction. The Aztecs were cannibals and evidence of Aztec predation on the Anasazi has recently been uncovered and explains why the Anasazi suddenly disappeared in the late 1300's and early 1400's. Aztec bodies have been found as far north as southern Utah and the reason they are known as Aztecs is due to the sharpened incisors the Aztecs favoured. The Aztecs considered dental modification to be a status symbol and the tradition of modifying incisors remains in Mexican culture to this day.

Also, had not the Spanish destroyed Aztec and Incan cultures then someone else would have.

[Blue_Nose]

Motorcycleboy Motorcycleboy:

And where exactly, did I say they were monkeys? You suggested that may be the case, not me.

Suggesting they're monkeys is perhaps one of the most condescending and racist things I've seen anyone post on here for awhile. Maybe people down east think that way BlueNose, but if you're going to post with educated people in the rest of Canada, I suggest you become a little more worldly.

And how do you know what I have or haven't contributed to Western Civilization? Please, do enlighten us BlueNose.

If you could read, I said they weren't monkeys, because I felt your condescending views of Africans were unjust. The fact that they have trouble with some political/military/civil issues speaks nothing of their ability to comprehend such 'civilized' concepts as democracy, or the fact that the earth is round. Your claims that we've helped them by saving them the trouble of '2000 years of evolution' was the statement that made me angry. Not only is the term 'evolution' used in a completely incorrect context - implying that we as westeners are somehow a better form of human - but you neglect to realize that the whole problem is that they've been thrust into the 20th century, without being allowed to develop as a society on its own.

If you have contributed to Canada's "law, free trade and democracy" in any way, please let me know, and I'll appologise. Otherwise, buy your steak and beer with a little less haughtiness.

[Constantinople]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

bootlegga bootlegga:

If you think that subjugating Africa was a good thing, then you probably also agree with wiping out the Aztecs, the Incas and pretty much every other culture here in the Americas too...I mean they were Stone Age societies too right?

Most Hopi and Navajo think that the Spanish wiping out the Aztecs saved them from extinction. The Aztecs were cannibals and evidence of Aztec predation on the Anasazi has recently been uncovered and explains why the Anasazi suddenly disappeared in the late 1300's and early 1400's. Aztec bodies have been found as far north as southern Utah and the reason they are known as Aztecs is due to the sharpened incisors the Aztecs favoured. The Aztecs considered dental modification to be a status symbol and the tradition of modifying incisors remains in Mexican culture to this day.

Also, had not the Spanish destroyed Aztec and Incan cultures then someone else would have.

The Age of Conquest. Gotta love it.

Looks like karma slapped the Aztecs right in the face. Good job, Spain.

[Blue_Nose]

hwacker hwacker:

Well he makes alot of sense in his post, why should we come to the rescue every time. In disaster ok fine, but just hand outs it's like constant welfare when do the benefits run out.?

I haven't suggested that we give them any more money. I am, in fact, against giving them money as much as you are. But we're currently taking millions of dollars per year in interest payments from these countries, and this is what I'm suggesting should be stopped.

[BartSimpson]

blue_nose blue_nose:

hwacker hwacker:

Well he makes alot of sense in his post, why should we come to the rescue every time. In disaster ok fine, but just hand outs it's like constant welfare when do the benefits run out.?

I haven't suggested that we give them any more money. I am, in fact, against giving them money as much as you are. But we're currently taking millions of dollars per year in interest payments from these countries, and this is what I'm suggesting should be stopped.

Good points. I heard it said elsewhere (and I paraphrase) that giving money to Africa to end poverty is like giving heroin to a junkie to end their drug addiction.

The money we give to African regimes props up those regimes. It is those regimes that cause the poverty and our giving them aid enables the poverty.

Tough love is what is in order for Africa.