[Bacardi4206]

Hmm, statistically speaking you are apparently right. Though having everybody walking with a gun that equals out to it being somehow safer sounds idiotic to me and still does. I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that as far as gun deaths are concerned, those that don't have guns bans have a higher gun death rates. Pretty sure that is correct, that is correct actually but not entirely sure for recent statistics on that. If that be the case, what is the true best safety net here? Having lower crime rates, or having less gun deaths. In my opinion, I'd rather get robbed then shot.

[ManifestDestiny]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Hmm, statistically speaking you are apparently right. Though having everybody walking with a gun that equals out to it being somehow safer sounds idiotic to me and still does. I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that as far as gun deaths are concerned, those that don't have guns bans have a higher gun death rates. Pretty sure that is correct, that is correct actually but not entirely sure for recent statistics on that. If that be the case, what is the true best safety net here? Having lower crime rates, or having less gun deaths. In my opinion, I'd rather get robbed then shot.

Most times when they speak of "gun deaths" they include suicide. Sometimes like Australia: According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, in 1985-2000, 78% of firearm deaths in Australia were suicides. Yet increase of the suicide rate in the 3 years after the introduction of the strict gun legislation.

So, many times when countries enact tough gun control, and point to the number of Gun deaths have dropped, they dont tell the whole story. They will not tell you that suicide rates stayed the same (poeple found other ways to kill themslef). Just that gundeaths are down. Criminals will still get their guns.

Jees the cops will sell them the guns if cops are the only ones with guns left.

[ManifestDestiny]

While homicides in Canada has see a moderate drop, the same cannot be said for suicides. The number of suicides by firearm in Canada dropped by 50% from 1,271 in 1977 to 636 in 2003, but non-firearm suicides have risen from 2,046 to 3,116 over the same time frame, an increase of 13%. This translates into a rate of 11.39 per 100,000 (2003).

The total rate of violent death (homicides and suicides) by firearms in 2004 was 2.38 per 100,000 while the total rate of violent death by non-firearm methods was 11.00 per 100,000 for the same year.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/980722/d980722.htm



So even without guns people will kill themselves and others

[themasta]

Boy, if only everybody had a gun, what a utopia that'd be

What's interesting, statistics proving that increased number of guns means more people using guns aside, is that in the Middle East you always see AK-47's being fired haphazardly into the air. Crappy South American countries always seem to have gangs with better firepower than the police. In fact, these nations are the epitome of the American dream of a people's right to bear arms. That alone should make you think critically about who should possess guns and who should not. Every man, woman and child in Iraq had access to every type of firearm imaginable and yet they did not use them to oppose tyranny, obstensibly what the Second Amendment is interpreted to mean. So do people feel safer in these countries where guns are most prevalent? I would hazard a guess that they do not. Would I feel safer if all the idiots I know (myself included) were packing? At least with a knife you have to get up close to kill.

[ridenrain]

Why look to those other nasty places? We just had another drug-thug shot up infront of his house in a nice quiet neighborhood. The police described the firearm as either an "automatic" or even "machine gun" but usually reporters don't know shit. What I do know is this is happening almost every weekend now and it's getting worst.

[BartSimpson]

themasta themasta:

Boy, if only everybody had a gun, what a utopia that'd be

What's interesting, statistics proving that increased number of guns means more people using guns aside, is that in the Middle East you always see AK-47's being fired haphazardly into the air. Crappy South American countries always seem to have gangs with better firepower than the police. In fact, these nations are the epitome of the American dream of a people's right to bear arms. That alone should make you think critically about who should possess guns and who should not. Every man, woman and child in Iraq had access to every type of firearm imaginable and yet they did not use them to oppose tyranny, obstensibly what the Second Amendment is interpreted to mean. So do people feel safer in these countries where guns are most prevalent? I would hazard a guess that they do not. Would I feel safer if all the idiots I know (myself included) were packing? At least with a knife you have to get up close to kill.

In the ME most people enjoy the right to keep and bear arms. Excluding acts of terror, violent crime is actually very rare in those countries because the average criminal can anticipate having to be shot and killed by armed citizens when he attempts to carry out a crime.

Yes, the morons in the ME shoot into the air as a means of celebration and despite the numerous people who get killed by the bullets when they return to earth no one is outlawing the tradition. It's not our country so I don't bother about it.

With regards to South America, civilization is something they have difficulties mastering in general. The principal reason the gangs have such support in those nations is because, fundamentally, the citizenry tends to view their governments as merely a better organized gang. Consequently, gangs that protect towns and regions from the depradations of the government enjoy the support of the people. Add to this the Latin American ethos of machismo and you'll find that it is considered more manly to be a gang banger than to be a cop or a law abiding businessman.

Banning guns (as has been done in Mexico, Peru, Colombia, Chile, Venezuela, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Uruguay, Paraguay, Ecuador, etc.) therefore will have zero effect on reducing crime because the popular culture is the source of inspiration for crime in those countries, not the presence of guns.

[stemmer]

All gun control does is take away the ability from citizens to protect themselves. It does not de-arm criminals.

[uwish]

no one is implying you MUST have a gun and I think people should stop with this silly 'here everyone have a gun, we are giving them out' analogies. No one is saying anything like that.

The point is those that CHOOSE to carry results in a NET benefit to society as the crooks and rapists do not know WHO is carrying. And Brac..you made my point, you claim gun control is rising in TO what has your strict gun control laws done to prevent that? nothing! I think it was much safer under the old pre-C68 days in TO wasn't it?

you just made my point

[uwish]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Hmm, statistically speaking you are apparently right. Though having everybody walking with a gun that equals out to it being somehow safer sounds idiotic to me and still does. I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that as far as gun deaths are concerned, those that don't have guns bans have a higher gun death rates. Pretty sure that is correct, that is correct actually but not entirely sure for recent statistics on that. If that be the case, what is the true best safety net here? Having lower crime rates, or having less gun deaths. In my opinion, I'd rather get robbed then shot.

I realize it may not make sense but you need to change your logic, you can choose not to carry or not to have any firearms, that is your choice. However, you can not make logic leaps like "I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing"

Police carry all day, they don't go around shooting people unless they are attacked! you drive around with your car all day, you don't slam it into groups of people do you? Ever used a knife? ever chased someone around with it in a threatening manner? no? probably not, just because someone is carry a handgun as in a CCW situation doesn't mean he is going to pull it out and start shooting people! That leap in logic is simply childish.

How many people carry knives all day? for work, whatever. Do you see them running threw the streets chasing people with them?

I am happy you finally agree that STATS and facts don't lie, now just remove your emotion from the equation and you will soon realize that being around firearms is no more 'scary' or idiotic than being around your bench saw!

[BartSimpson]

Another statistical truth: You are more likely to be shot and killed by a corrupt or abusive police officer than you are likely to be shot by a person legally carrying a concealed weapon.

[uwish]

all the arguments aside, it is hard to deal with the complete and utter loss of rights. In Canada, a recent court ruling has found firearms ownership IS A RIGHT in Canada, not a privilege.

check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmrqT9SI ... carry.org/

[BartSimpson]

uwish uwish:

all the arguments aside, it is hard to deal with the complete and utter loss of rights. In Canada, a recent court ruling has found firearms ownership IS A RIGHT in Canada, not a privilege.

check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmrqT9SI ... carry.org/

Correction, firearms ownership is a right of free men. Canadians living under the Charter will not be free until the notwithstanding clause is revoked.

[QBall]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Tricks Tricks:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Tricks Tricks:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Thousands of people die by guns deaths a year in the US alone, add the rest of the worlds total as well. Though one student killed a terrorist in the ENTIRE world and they are using that as avertisement to say guns can protect people? Yes, a student shooting a terrorist because he had a gun makes up for all the thousands, and probally millions of gun deaths in the world per year . They make me sick.

That massive number of gun deaths would be smaller if there were more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens.

There also would be almost no gun deaths if nobody had guns, and only law enforcement had them. Leaving criminals with only knives, which is easier to prevent a attack with then a gun.

How do you suppose you are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

One idea would be to not let anybody sell them? Like Gun Stores, and take out all illegal vendors. Take away all licenses, and anybody caught with a gun gets there gun taken away. Eventually in a point in time, everybodys guns would be weeded out of society leaving everybody gunless. Just a idea however, not implying that it should happen or going to happen.

That's not going to really work as long as our neighbours to the south make access to a firearm as easy as renting a car. Smuggling guns from the south is too easy and too lucrative a venture. And a quick scan of the sky shows no flying pigs I guess that's not going to change.
I suppose if we made a law saying the only gun a private citizen can buy is a musket maybe that will change attitudes. It's kind of hard to be gangsta when you're carrying a powder horn and flint.

[BartSimpson]

QBall QBall:

That's not going to really work as long as our neighbours to the south make access to a firearm as easy as renting a car. Smuggling guns from the south is too easy and too lucrative a venture. And a quick scan of the sky shows no flying pigs I guess that's not going to change.
I suppose if we made a law saying the only gun a private citizen can buy is a musket maybe that will change attitudes. It's kind of hard to be gangsta when you're carrying a powder horn and flint.

Oh, I see. So the reason gun control failed in Canada is because we didn't ban guns in the USA . And why would a law limiting firearms ownership to muskets do one more bloody thing to reduce the traffic in illegal arms in Canada? You've already made the case that gun control in Canada is a failure and you want to add another stupid gun control law to the mix because, hell, the last thousand or so gun laws were useless so why not add one more?

And on the issue of smuggling guns from the US into Canada it's really a matter of fairness.

Back when we stupidly banned alcohol under Prohibition no end of Canadians profited from smuggling liquor into the USA.

So when you folks stupidly ban firearms it's only fair that we should profit from smuggling guns into Canada.

[Bacardi4206]

uwish uwish:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

Hmm, statistically speaking you are apparently right. Though having everybody walking with a gun that equals out to it being somehow safer sounds idiotic to me and still does. I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing.

I am pretty sure I read somewhere that as far as gun deaths are concerned, those that don't have guns bans have a higher gun death rates. Pretty sure that is correct, that is correct actually but not entirely sure for recent statistics on that. If that be the case, what is the true best safety net here? Having lower crime rates, or having less gun deaths. In my opinion, I'd rather get robbed then shot.

I realize it may not make sense but you need to change your logic, you can choose not to carry or not to have any firearms, that is your choice. However, you can not make logic leaps like "I honestly do not see how having wreckless, idiotic human beings carrying a weapon that can kill somebody is the safest thing"

Police carry all day, they don't go around shooting people unless they are attacked! you drive around with your car all day, you don't slam it into groups of people do you? Ever used a knife? ever chased someone around with it in a threatening manner? no? probably not, just because someone is carry a handgun as in a CCW situation doesn't mean he is going to pull it out and start shooting people! That leap in logic is simply childish.

How many people carry knives all day? for work, whatever. Do you see them running threw the streets chasing people with them?

I am happy you finally agree that STATS and facts don't lie, now just remove your emotion from the equation and you will soon realize that being around firearms is no more 'scary' or idiotic than being around your bench saw!

"Police carry all day, they don't go around shooting people unless they are attacked!"

Yeah, there's also the fact that if you shoot your gun. You need to make a report on it, and also that if you shot anybody. It's speceficly tracked to your gun.

So if a police officer went around and shot somebody for no reason, or robbed somebody and shot them. What would be his excuse to the police department? "Yeah my gun accidently went off and hit a person and there money magicly found it's way inside my wallet"? Cops aren't stupid, they wouldn't go around shooting people with there guns because it's a sure way to get caught. 100% garanteed.

"just because someone is carry a handgun as in a CCW situation doesn't mean he is going to pull it out and start shooting people! That leap in logic is simply childish."

Really? So I suppose all those people who rob people with guns, and kill people with guns every single day don't count right? I gotcha