[Guy_Fawkes]

Agreed, I think Germany took the right road.

[CDN_PATRIOT]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

SprCForr SprCForr:

If there was ever a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation this would be it.

We should have kept out of this.

The haggis is in the fire now.


-J.

[Lemmy]

I have no problem supporting a new government, but this whole mess smells exactly like Afghanistan. What's going to happen when we leave there? Another Taliban government will take control. Why? Because the people haven't the will to oppose it. No matter what we install in Libya, as soon as we leave another Khadafi-type will take over. And at what cost? Unless THEIR people make the change, the change won't hold. It's too early for our involvement.

[BRAH]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

As Canadians, Harper was right in saying we have a moral obligation to uphold freedom that we hold so dear. And, Canada has never been one to back down from a fight. We've been liberating and sticking up for the little guy for a long time. All Canadians can be proud of our military history, and our forces now that serve us well.



-J.

Ok, so why do the people of Libya deserve our intervention but the people of Eygpt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen etc don't?

Why are we going to Libya? We don't get any oil from there, it's not even in the same continent as us and we have few cultural/historical links with Libya.

I can't understand why the French are all over this too. There's a few grudges to be sorted out with Libya, the US and the Brits so them wanting to throw some fun Ghadaffi's way, well I can see their reasoning.

But Libya is still not worth the bones of a single grenadier guard, and I have no clue why we are deploying F18's to this when they haven't even got a bit of Afghan dust in their intakes over the 10 years our army has been in combat there.

It doesn't make any sense.

The difference from Libya and the other countries you mentioned is Gaddafi was using Military assets against his own people, Fighter Jets, Tanks, Helicopter gunships etc.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I have no problem supporting a new government, but this whole mess smells exactly like Afghanistan. What's going to happen when we leave there? Another Taliban government will take control. Why? Because the people haven't the will to oppose it. No matter what we install in Libya, as soon as we leave another Khadafi-type will take over. And at what cost? Unless THEIR people make the change, the change won't hold. It's too early for our involvement.

I doubt if a Taliban type govt will come to power. But it might not be some wonderful democracy that puts Norway (democracy index = 9. to shame. We should stay out of how they manage their affairs.

But, if we can push this to toppling Gagdaffy, then it will form the impetus for other revolutions in the ME. If Daffy is successful in repressing the revolt, it will encourage other dictators to do the same. We may not always like the govt that forms out of these events, but the current situation can't last in the long run anyway.

[Lemmy]

andyt andyt:

I doubt if a Taliban type govt will come to power.

If that were true, we'd have been gone from A-stan YEARS ago. If the Libyans can't win their democracy on their own, there's no way they'll ever be able to maintain it.

[EyeBrock]

BRAH BRAH:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

As Canadians, Harper was right in saying we have a moral obligation to uphold freedom that we hold so dear. And, Canada has never been one to back down from a fight. We've been liberating and sticking up for the little guy for a long time. All Canadians can be proud of our military history, and our forces now that serve us well.



-J.

Ok, so why do the people of Libya deserve our intervention but the people of Eygpt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen etc don't?

Why are we going to Libya? We don't get any oil from there, it's not even in the same continent as us and we have few cultural/historical links with Libya.

I can't understand why the French are all over this too. There's a few grudges to be sorted out with Libya, the US and the Brits so them wanting to throw some fun Ghadaffi's way, well I can see their reasoning.

But Libya is still not worth the bones of a single grenadier guard, and I have no clue why we are deploying F18's to this when they haven't even got a bit of Afghan dust in their intakes over the 10 years our army has been in combat there.

It doesn't make any sense.

The difference from Libya and the other countries you mentioned is Gaddafi was using Military assets against his own people, Fighter Jets, Tanks, Helicopter gunships etc.

No they just used oppressive secret police against their own people for decades.

In Yemen, the army are shooting into the crowds killing dozens, Bahrain has Saudi tanks rolling down it's streets so Libya really is a special case eh?

Libya is having a civil war and we have picked sides. Not something I can endorse.

[andyt]

Lemmy Lemmy:

andyt andyt:

I doubt if a Taliban type govt will come to power.

If that were true, we'd have been gone from A-stan YEARS ago. If the Libyans can't win their democracy on their own, there's no way they'll ever be able to maintain it.

How so? In Astan the Talibs were already in power when we went in. Astan is an isolated, very backward country that is a great breeding ground for radical Islam. Libya was an Italian colony, is close to the West, and doesn't seem like a breeding ground for religious extremism.

I don't see how the rebels winning with our help will bring in a Taliban type regime, while the rebels winning on their own won't? Either the breeding ground is there or not. What we should not do is try to impose some sort of regime on them, let them figure that out for themselves. But if it seems at all a reasonable one, we should give them some non-military help to get going.

Primarily, as I understand it, Libya is a collection of tribes that Daffy manged to control. Possibly it will now split apart on tribal lines. We should stay out of that process, so we don't get more of the types of mess the Brits left behind in their colonies with artificial borders keeping together groups of people that hate each other.

[Lemmy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

No they just used oppressive secret police against their own people for decades.

In Yemen, the army are shooting into the crowds killing dozens, Bahrain has Saudi tanks rolling down it's streets so Libya really is a special case eh?

Libya is having a civil war and we have picked sides. Not something I can endorse.

[BRAH]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

No they just used oppressive secret police against their own people for decades.

In Yemen, the army are shooting into the crowds killing dozens, Bahrain has Saudi tanks rolling down it's streets so Libya really is a special case eh?

Libya is having a civil war and we have picked sides. Not something I can endorse.

I think you are wrong but that's cool..

[EyeBrock]

Thanks Brah! I like the debate and you contribute so you are ok by me!

[andyt]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Libya is having a civil war and we have picked sides. Not something I can endorse.

So you're against us being in Astan too?

[EyeBrock]

Afghanistan and our involvement was triggered by treaty obligations. We should be wary of future treaties.

We have no such obligations in Libya. Why go there?

[andyt]

Isn't it a NATO action in Libya? And are you saying we should get out of NATO?

Our involvement in Astan was certainly way more robust than other NATO countries, so the obligation seems flexible. We could have done what the French did. (What was that exactly?) But do you support the continuing presence of NATO in Astan, nation building and all, after the Talibs were initially defeated and Al Qaeda on the run?

It all seems like a tough call to me. Glad I don't have to make it.

[EyeBrock]

andyt andyt:

Isn't it a NATO action in Libya? And are you saying we should get out of NATO?

Our involvement in Astan was certainly way more robust than other NATO countries, so the obligation seems flexible. We could have done what the French did. (What was that exactly?) But do you support the continuing presence of NATO in Astan, nation building and all, after the Talibs were initially defeated and Al Qaeda on the run?

It all seems like a tough call to me. Glad I don't have to make it.

You need to brush up on international organisations, treaties etc. andy.
This effort in Libya is a follow-up to a UN resolution. This isn’t a NATO mission.

On Afghanistan, an Article 6 request was made by the US to NATO. We made an agreement binding by international law. Personally I think using Article 6 to get us into Afghanistan was a bit of a stretch from the Treaty’s original aims.

The North Atlantic Treaty was a direct response to Soviet aggression in Europe post WW2. I dunno about using it for Afghanistan and 911. It fits, but not quite properly. 911 wasn’t Soviet tanks in West Berlin.

I’m just poor bloody infantry. I support our military in the missions Parliament sends them on. It's the least I can do.