[Regina]

[Gunnair]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

As far as I know the British, Canadian, and Australian militaries are the only ones who allow racial uniforms. The only reason the Canadian and Australian militaries allow theirs is because of our British ties. I am a little bit more passionate this thread then most because I feel that racial separation by any means does not stifle bigotry, it inflames it. There is a reason that females in the military do not wear skirts anymore.
If you want a different uniform, fine, but keep the change subtle. I know your all going to point out the highlanders, but the kilt is ceremonial and in a reserve regiment. The French, do not have a all French regiment or a English excluding regiment. Anyone can join the Highlanders or the Vandoos, could I join the Punjabi regiment, only if I embraced their religion.

While I don't agree that bigotry would be inflamed, I do see your point. Nor am I saying that membership in a Punjabi regiment would be based on religious affiliation. I think the regiment should be open, just like the Highlanders and the Vandoos.

[Gunnair]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

I think the biggest recruiting challenge is the pay issue and awful support for injured servicemen/women. The Conservatives need a fire lit under their asses on this issue. That is a national disgrace since soldiers have been coming back injured in 2002 to present. You can't expect people to volunteer when the soldiers who sacrificed their limbs and bodies are being screwed over day after day.

My family is a mix of French Acadian / French Protestant Loyalists of NB/NS heritage, and as someone whose family has a history in those units you are mistaken if you think the Highland units are entrenching Scottish or Irish culture, it is legacy and unit recognition of those who died in uniform from earlier fights. If they spoke Gaelic and made you dance the Céilidh I'd support banning them.

Quebec is an admitted hot potato and to honest, plenty of French died and sacrificed in the creation of OUR modern state, regardless of which side they were on . Sikhs and Muslim didn't have the Indian (Aboriginal) wars, clear the Maritimes and Upper and Lower Canada for settlement, or contribute to the entrenchment of our hodgepodge of Provincial/Monarchy traditions. But that DOESN'T make them less Canadian, or deserving of lesser freedoms op inclusion.

I admit I prefer NB French to the Quebecois, due to the different cultures and loyalties. But I respect the Quebecois' differences and different heritage, just don't agree with many policies.

I don't think Highland units entrench any celtic culture at all - the regiments were designed to attract members of a martial race in the years after Culloden and the Act of Proscription of many of the martial facets of Scottish culture. They of course do not do that now. The point was, giving Scots their own regiment that recognized some of the facets of their culture instilled pride and attacted numbers (and funneled military age Scots out of the country to keep them out of trouble)

Anyway, it appears we see each other's points, so fair enough.

[PENATRATOR]

lily lily:

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

What have I said tonight that infringes on anyones right to worship as they please on their off duty hours. Or entrenches any favoritism? I believe soldiers need MORE support systems, better pay, better equipment and any religious requirements for people in combat is something I have no problem paying for since they are have no ability to do so, off base, in most of the modern combat zones.

Sikhs included.

So why do you have a problem with turbans then? Is it simply because you believe uniforms should be all the same and never change?

Who really cares, anyway?

Well I guess you have never served then because actually many of us that proudly wear the uniform of our nation care about uniformity, no problem with multi faiths serving, though I don't care for the turban in a uniform, the only time it ticks me off is when the INDIVIDUAL wearing it, refuses to wear a helmet or gas mask or something of the sort. Now before anybody jumps allover me, I said the INDIVIDUAL because there has been instances I've seen. Services and regiments have long proud histories that many paid for with their lives. Diversity is great, but not at the expense of military traditions.

[PENATRATOR]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

Anyone can join the Highlanders or the Vandoos, could I join the Punjabi regiment, only if I embraced their religion.

Right on the head!! Well done

[PENATRATOR]

Gunnair Gunnair:

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

I think the biggest recruiting challenge is the pay issue and awful support for injured servicemen/women. The Conservatives need a fire lit under their asses on this issue. That is a national disgrace since soldiers have been coming back injured in 2002 to present. You can't expect people to volunteer when the soldiers who sacrificed their limbs and bodies are being screwed over day after day.

My family is a mix of French Acadian / French Protestant Loyalists of NB/NS heritage, and as someone whose family has a history in those units you are mistaken if you think the Highland units are entrenching Scottish or Irish culture, it is legacy and unit recognition of those who died in uniform from earlier fights. If they spoke Gaelic and made you dance the Céilidh I'd support banning them.

Quebec is an admitted hot potato and to honest, plenty of French died and sacrificed in the creation of OUR modern state, regardless of which side they were on . Sikhs and Muslim didn't have the Indian (Aboriginal) wars, clear the Maritimes and Upper and Lower Canada for settlement, or contribute to the entrenchment of our hodgepodge of Provincial/Monarchy traditions. But that DOESN'T make them less Canadian, or deserving of lesser freedoms op inclusion.

I admit I prefer NB French to the Quebecois, due to the different cultures and loyalties. But I respect the Quebecois' differences and different heritage, just don't agree with many policies.

I don't think Highland units entrench any celtic culture at all - the regiments were designed to attract members of a martial race in the years after Culloden and the Act of Proscription of many of the martial facets of Scottish culture. They of course do not do that now. The point was, giving Scots their own regiment that recognized some of the facets of their culture instilled pride and attacted numbers (and funneled military age Scots out of the country to keep them out of trouble)

Anyway, it appears we see each other's points, so fair enough.

Not to mention the kilts scared the living SHIT out of the Germans

[PENATRATOR]

"In fact, you yourself don't seem to have a problem with a fellow member wearing a turban so long as he conforms to the safety standards."
Uh, yeah, that's exactly what I said. Thanks.
As for you not serving, yes it does matter when you make a comment about our traditions with "Who cares".

[bootlegga]

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

Are there no Canadian sacred cows? What if religious extremists of various ethnicities (religious right included) made the majority. What are you willing to give up in pusuit of this "inclusion" cult. Abortion rights, gay rights, give equal footing yo sharia courts?

It is as if everything we have done to get where we are today was for naught. I am a big fan of Christopher Hitchens. Western civilization is not for sale, or something I want to part with for a few votes. Western liberalism is why we are a free nation, to abandon all of the dressings and heritage is not going to help us sustain it. I fear for the liberal western world that capitulates the truly good and noble advances we have made culturally and philosophically.

Of course there are no 'sacred cows'. What you fail to realize is that Canada has always been changing, you're just too blind to see it. In the beginning, the aboriginals outnumbered everyone. Then Quebecois dominated Canada (after it was taken). Then after the American revolution, British loyalist moved north and swamped them with numbers. After that, there were waves of immigration from Ireland, Scotland, Germany, the Ukraine, you name, we got it. By 1900, Asians wanted to come to Canada. They further changed the mix. Waves of immigrants have and always will change our nation. They add strength to our country, not weaken it.

Canada is ever evolving and so must our institutions.

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair Gunnair:

InternetChatter InternetChatter:

Are there no Canadian sacred cows? What if religious extremists of various ethnicities (religious right included) made the majority. What are you willing to give up in pusuit of this "inclusion" cult. Abortion rights, gay rights, give equal footing yo sharia courts?

It is as if everything we have done to get where we are today was for naught. I am a big fan of Christopher Hitchens. Western civilization is not for sale, or something I want to part with for a few votes. Western liberalism is why we are a free nation, to abandon all of the dressings and heritage is not going to help us sustain it. I fear for the liberal western world that capitulates the truly good and noble advances we have made culturally and philosophically.

Really. So, by allowing Sikhs to wear turbans, or, heaven forbide, allow them their own regiment, it'll signal the fall of western civilization? Were all the previous examples of ethnic accomadation lost on you? It worked well for the British, and it has worked well for Canada with the French Canadians.

So please illustrate how allowing Indo-Canadians their own regiment is somehow worse than allowing French Canadians or Scottish Canadians their own regiments?

By the way, once again I'd ask you to peek through a history book and see how much blood and toil Indians, Japanese (WWI), Nepalese, and Arabs have put into our Western Liberalism and freedom. You just might be surprised.

Gunnair, I think an Indo-Canadian regiment is an idea with merit. Really Sikhs spring to mind on this one.
The Sikh culture holds warriors in high regard. This is just like the regiments that were raised with British sounding names, like the Calgary Highlanders, Black Watch of Canada, or a dozen or more very Anglo sounding militia regiments. These regiments appealed to recent immigrants from the UK but still were very Canadian.
Why not do the same with the current immigrants? They are Canadians but they have a military heritage similar to the anglo-saxon warrior ethos.
The Sikh Regiment in the Indian Army is seen as the shock troops of the Indian Infantry and Sikh units in the British Indian Army were held in very high regard by the British.

I think a regiment say named The Canadian Sikh Regiment or even the Royal Canadian Regiment of Sikhs etc would be a good way of integrating the Sikh culture into mainstream Canada.

I would think this would be an excellent addition to the Regiments of the Canadian Army, plus its just a good idea culturally.

[roger-roger]

Thats a bad idea man, the CF will never accept it. You cannot give a religion its own regiment, thats insanity!

[TattoodGirl]

$1:

As has been pointed out repeatedly - traditions have been constantly evolving, and this includes the uniform. But if you really want to cite tradition... take a look at some of the old pictures that have been posted on this thread, and explain to me what the problem is, and why anyone should care that some members of the military suddenly have a problem with the turban.

Could it be that someone who wears a turban isnt white?...thats how im seeing it

[roger-roger]

There has always been a problem with them actually, its not a big problem, but it has been there since the first Sikh claimed it was a religious right to wear it while in uniform. The thing is the military does not talk openly about these sorts of problems.

[roger-roger]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

$1:

As has been pointed out repeatedly - traditions have been constantly evolving, and this includes the uniform. But if you really want to cite tradition... take a look at some of the old pictures that have been posted on this thread, and explain to me what the problem is, and why anyone should care that some members of the military suddenly have a problem with the turban.

Could it be that someone who wears a turban isnt white?...thats how im seeing it

Thats not how I see it, and the fact that you see it that way is why the military does not like talking about it. It's the fact that as an Atheist I am not allowed to wear the turbin, and they really didnt do anything to earn it except embrace a religion that lets you wear a funny hat.

JTF2 is allowed to wear a different color beret then anyone else in the CF, people dont say anything because the JTF2 earned the right to stand out. The same with the Highlanders and any other trade in the CF that dresses differently. You have to earn your uniform in the military.

[TattoodGirl]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

$1:

As has been pointed out repeatedly - traditions have been constantly evolving, and this includes the uniform. But if you really want to cite tradition... take a look at some of the old pictures that have been posted on this thread, and explain to me what the problem is, and why anyone should care that some members of the military suddenly have a problem with the turban.

Could it be that someone who wears a turban isnt white?...thats how im seeing it

Thats not how I see it, and the fact that you see it that way is why the military does not like talking about it. It's the fact that as an Atheist I am not allowed to wear the turbin, and they really didnt do anything to earn it except embrace a religion that lets you wear a funny hat.

JTF2 is allowed to wear a different color beret then anyone else in the CF, people dont say anything because the JTF2 earned the right to stand out.

The FACT that i see it that way is because of the comments on this forum, not from military not talking about it. He has been accepted so that shows me some are more tolerant than others. Why would you wear a turban? you arent Sikh...and btw calling someones turban (which is part of their religion/culture) a Funny Hat, shows intolerance...which leads down the road to bigotry. Thats how I see, I just call it as I see it.

[roger-roger]

Whoa Whoa Whoa, its a religion not a skin color. You can change a religion, if he wants to go out and wrap something on his head, all the power to him. I think it looks silly. Why is it that because you stamp religion on it, it becomes taboo. If a guy puts a foil hat on his head because aliens told him, we can call it silly. I dont see the difference.
He still has to go a long way before he gets acceptance in the CF, for starters he has to complete his basic training. What if I liked how the turban looked, why shouldnt I be allowed to wear it?