[BRAH]

Hamas has rejected the latest cease fire put forward by Egypt and The Palestinain Authority but according to the Hamas apologists Israel are the war criminals, such hypocrisy.

[xerxes]

How many times does it have to be said that to criticize Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas?

Saying that Israel is killing too many civilians isn't the same as wanting to reopen Sachsenhausen.

[BartSimpson]

peck420 peck420:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Okay...and why do the Saudis hate the Palestinians just as much as the Jews do?

Do you think perhaps that the Palestinians are the common denominator here?

Not really, and quite frankly I thought you were smarter than that, but, you could just be playing possum with me, so...

The Saudi's hate democracy.

If multiple Arab states become democratic, and even worse, a democratic Muslim nation living in peace with a democratic Jewish nation...the royals are going to have a problem.

Long story short, if a miracle happens and Palestine and Israel achieve a lasting peace, there is going to be a major internal issue for a lot of the surrounding Arab nations. The only real downside to that, is that, so far, the replacements for the current crop of rulers have been significantly worse than their predecessors.

You need to go back a bit in your history. The Palestinians were at one point refugees and the majority lived in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan with a smaller component residing in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia at one point was the key financial backer of the PLO.

When the PLO's Arafat publicly supported the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait he placed the PLO at odds to the interests and survival of the Saudi state. Yasir Arafat also made indelicate comments about the al-Saud that he thought were privileged that ended up being recorded and replayed for the al-Saud. In the same calendar week Arafat had also made comments to the Jordanians supporting their claims on the Hejaz territory of Saudi Arabia. That the Saudis were displeased is obvious.

By today's standards, mind you, the PLO were moderates. Both Fatah and Hamas, the inheritors of the PLO, have had little nice to say about the al-Saud and even though the Kingdom permits its people to make private donations to Fatah and Hamas there is no official support from the Kingdom.

The Kingdom rightfully considers the Palestinians to be duplicitous and treacherous and the only reason they tolerate anyone supporting those jerks is because of public antipathies that are aimed at Israel. The al-Saud don't want to alienate their own people by indirectly supporting Israel over a common enemy.

There's a lot more to this topic than what I've posted here, but suffice it to say that were it Saudi Arabia bordering on Gaza the war would've ended weeks ago and the casualties among the Palestinians would have been along the lines of a battle in World War One.

[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

How many times does it have to be said that to criticize Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas?

Saying that Israel is killing too many civilians isn't the same as wanting to reopen Sachsenhausen.

How many is the acceptable number to you?

[Goober911]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

peck420 peck420:

They have the resources to do it, but when the King hates the Palestinians as much as the Jews...I guess this is going swimmingly.

Okay...and why do the Saudis hate the Palestinians just as much as the Jews do?

Do you think perhaps that the Palestinians are the common denominator here?

In this case the Muslim Brotherhood of which Hamas is a member.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world ... -news&_r=0

[Goober911]

desertdude desertdude:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Israel has accepted the possibility of two state solutions in the past.

http://arabisraeliconflict.info/arab-is ... e-solution

Key phrase: possibility of two state solutions, as in yeah..maybe. but, still never out right put it on record that yes Israel will recognize Palestine. The link talks about Israel accepting UN resolutions, which is meaningless, at last count Israel has or is rejecting or ignoring 60 UN resolutions . So that point in null and void.

Talks about Camp David 2000 which was basically. Let Israel keep its settlements ( i.e stolen land ) and if it carves up and ghetto-izez the west bank into smaller blocks, sorry too bad nothing we can do about it. It would have many small pockets of land surrounded completely by settlements in many cases. So shame on Palestinians for demanding full sovereignity of West bank.

Also asked for was a very soft and toned down version for the right of return for the refugees if they choose to or accept compensation, but they refugees would be highly discouraged from going back and only limited numbers allowed in, that is if they wanted to go back in the first place. Israel outright denied it claiming the refugee problem was of not their doing, hence they should not have to deal with.

Israel also wanted to maintain military presence inside and on Palestinian borders and as well as use its air space as it own, wonder how many sovereign nations would accept that.

So yeah shame on the Palestinians for not accepting almost everything exactly the way it was. The biggest thing they might get, would be, maybe a token title of a country.

Yeah so Israel is willing to accept a two sate solution as long as both the states are theirs

Much of the borders were already agreed to from what I understand. Approx 96 %. Then land swaps.
As to Israel maintaining their security, I cannot fault that as arms would slip across the Jordanian border.
Right of return was nixed by Abbas a tad ago.
The other sticking point is Jerusalem.
Israel will not return control of the holy sites to Palestine.
Though Palestine should also have the right to call Jerusalem their capital. For the areas under their control.
Look to after the 48 War when it was agreed that Jews would have access.
Jordan denied that access till Israel captured it in 67.

And having the UN patrol the borders, look to how well it worked in Lebanon with arms from Syria pouring across to Hezbollah.

Most of the settlements would have to go.

[peck420]

Bart,

I will take your word for it, but I still have strong doubts.

None of this explains the Saudi's hate for Arafat from the late 50's to early 60's...long before the Kuwait issue. Even before the formation of the PLO.

Nor does it explain why the Saudi's will talk nice to Israel and the West, while funding anti-Israel and anti-West groups.

They are an absolute monarchy, if they do not want funding to go to somebody, it doesn't go there. If they are allowing it, they support it.

It is interesting that the Saudi's consider the Palestinians duplicitous though, as the House of Saud is probably the most duplicitous group in the ME.

[Goober911]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

xerxes xerxes:

How many times does it have to be said that to criticize Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas?

Saying that Israel is killing too many civilians isn't the same as wanting to reopen Sachsenhausen.

How many is the acceptable number to you?

Israel has hinted at approx 1/2 million as acceptable.
You should have that stuff down pat.

[BartSimpson]

Goober911 Goober911:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

xerxes xerxes:

How many times does it have to be said that to criticize Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas?

Saying that Israel is killing too many civilians isn't the same as wanting to reopen Sachsenhausen.

How many is the acceptable number to you?

Israel has hinted at approx 1/2 million as acceptable.
You should have that stuff down pat.

No, I am asking you what your threshold of acceptable is. Hamas is shooting missiles all over Israel with the express intent of killing civilians and if they'd killed 1,000 Jews they'd be celebrating in the streets.

So 1,000 people are dead as a direct result of the actions of a government they freely elected and you cry about it.

You know that not one more Palestinian would die if Hamas were to stop shooting missiles right now? That's all it takes for peace is for Hamas to stop waging war.

But they won't do that and you irrationally blame Israel for the result of Hamas' actions.

Utterly absurd.

[BartSimpson]

peck420 peck420:

Bart,

I will take your word for it, but I still have strong doubts.

None of this explains the Saudi's hate for Arafat from the late 50's to early 60's...long before the Kuwait issue. Even before the formation of the PLO.

Nor does it explain why the Saudi's will talk nice to Israel and the West, while funding anti-Israel and anti-West groups.

They are an absolute monarchy, if they do not want funding to go to somebody, it doesn't go there. If they are allowing it, they support it.

It is interesting that the Saudi's consider the Palestinians duplicitous though, as the House of Saud is probably the most duplicitous group in the ME.

Indeed, the issues go way back. Knowing the ME the Saudis and the Palestinians are still grudging over who killed someone's goat back in 1700BC.

The overall point is that the animus exists and for a reason. And the common denominator here would be the Palestinians.

[peck420]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The overall point is that the animus exists and for a reason. And the common denominator here would be the Palestinians.

The underlined is what I take umbrage with...from everything you have stated, it would appear that the common denominator is the ME, not one specific people of the ME.

Saudi's acting stupid? Check
Israeli's acting stupid? Check
Palestinians? Check
Jordanians? Check
Syrians? Check
Iraqis, Iranians, Kuwaitis? Check, check, and check.
(Do I need to list every country?)

Has anybody tested the water there?

[Goober911]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

So 1,000 people are dead as a direct result of the actions of a government they freely elected and you cry about it.

You know that not one more Palestinian would die if Hamas were to stop shooting missiles right now? That's all it takes for peace is for Hamas to stop waging war.

But they won't do that and you irrationally blame Israel for the result of Hamas' actions.

Utterly absurd.

Well Bart has the present Israeli govt tried to make a peace deal in the last negotiations.

[BartSimpson]

peck420 peck420:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The overall point is that the animus exists and for a reason. And the common denominator here would be the Palestinians.

The underlined is what I take umbrage with...from everything you have stated, it would appear that the common denominator is the ME, not one specific people of the ME.

Saudi's acting stupid? Check
Israeli's acting stupid? Check
Palestinians? Check
Jordanians? Check
Syrians? Check
Iraqis, Iranians, Kuwaitis? Check, check, and check.
(Do I need to list every country?)

Has anybody tested the water there?

And what's the common denominator of SA, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Oatar, Dubai, Yemen, Somalia, Eritrea, and etc?

[desertdude]

Goober911 Goober911:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

So 1,000 people are dead as a direct result of the actions of a government they freely elected and you cry about it.

You know that not one more Palestinian would die if Hamas were to stop shooting missiles right now? That's all it takes for peace is for Hamas to stop waging war.

But they won't do that and you irrationally blame Israel for the result of Hamas' actions.

Utterly absurd.

Well Bart has the present Israeli govt tried to make a peace deal in the last negotiations.

Yeah it did in 2010-2011, it refused a US 3 billion worth of F-35s deal to stop settlement building for just six months excluding Jurusalem so the talks could continue.

And then in 2013-2014 talks Yahoo refused to give an inch of settler land and refused to release prisoner it had first promised to do and during the 9 month peace talk, new settler activity was at a all time high.

Yeah they "tried" to make peace as long as they get to keep stealing land.

[desertdude]

peck420 peck420:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

The overall point is that the animus exists and for a reason. And the common denominator here would be the Palestinians.

The underlined is what I take umbrage with...from everything you have stated, it would appear that the common denominator is the ME, not one specific people of the ME.

Saudi's acting stupid? Check
Israeli's acting stupid? Check
Palestinians? Check
Jordanians? Check
Syrians? Check
Iraqis, Iranians, Kuwaitis? Check, check, and check.
(Do I need to list every country?)

Has anybody tested the water there?

What have the Jordanians done ? What have the Omanis done, What have the Emaritis done, Do need I list every country.

P.S : Bart Dubai is NOT a country