[Newsbot]

Title: Guns pulled on man with cigarette
Category: Law & Order
Posted By: Hyack
Date: 2011-02-13 22:40:59
Canadian

[martin14]

overreact much ?

[andyt]

$1:

"It's a lit cigarette. He can use it as a weapon, either burning the officer or poking him in the eye with it -- anything," Chornley said of any potential suspect who is smoking while cops close in.

OMFG. Those boys need a bit of:

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Classic sketch

[EyeBrock]

martin14 martin14:

overreact much ?

Second guessing a firearms call is always easy from your chair martin.

[Regina]

"That was a little freaky. I thought they were going to shoot me," he said.

"It looked like they wanted to."


He was so worried about them shooting him that he took a few more puffs on his butt then tossed it.

[BartSimpson]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Second guessing a firearms call is always easy from your chair martin.

No offense, but calling BS on an crappy use of force excuse is not 'anti-cop'.

Again, no offense intended, but for a supposedly pacifistic and anti-gun society it seems that your cops have have a predilection for some major issues. And then they're pretty lame at coming up with excuses.

Really, even a first year rookie down here knows enough to at least say he thought the perp was holding a weapon. But to say you felt at mortal peril because someone was holding a lit cigarette? That's either the words of a truly pathetic liar or the worlds' worst pantywaist.

[Public_Domain]

[BartSimpson]

Regina Regina:

"That was a little freaky. I thought they were going to shoot me," he said.

"It looked like they wanted to."


He was so worried about them shooting him that he took a few more puffs on his butt then tossed it.

He was merely acting according to precedent.

[EyeBrock]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Second guessing a firearms call is always easy from your chair martin.

No offense, but calling BS on an crappy use of force excuse is not 'anti-cop'.

Again, no offense intended, but for a supposedly pacifistic and anti-gun society it seems that your cops have have a predilection for some major issues. And then they're pretty lame at coming up with excuses.

Really, even a first year rookie down here knows enough to at least say he thought the perp was holding a weapon. But to say you felt at mortal peril because someone was holding a lit cigarette? That's either the words of a truly pathetic liar or the worlds' worst pantywaist.

From the media reports, it was a gun call and there was a guy at or near the location where the suspect was later arrested. The guy was asked to drop his lit cig amongst other instructions. No excessive UoF alleged and these things happen at gun calls.

What was silly was the media cop trying to say that the lit cig was an issue. Let those used to going to gun calls cast the first stone.

[BartSimpson]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

From the media reports, it was a gun call and there was a guy at or near the location where the suspect was later arrested. The guy was asked to drop his lit cig amongst other instructions. No excessive UoF alleged and these things happen at gun calls.

The thing with pointless instructions like "Drop the cigarette or I'll shoot!" is they have nothing to do with officer safety and everything to do with a LEO establishing his/her dominance on site. Notice I'm not saying 'authority'? That's because any cop out there already has authority. But it seems no end of bullies with badges get off on shoving people around and intimidating people for no justifiable reason. You Tube has thousands of videos to validate my opinion and for every incident on video I'm sure there's another thousand that aren't.

When I was active duty my job included traveling with my personal artillery kit and despite the fact that I had the proper paperwork in hand I was an a$$hole magnet for every poophead out to prove something. Did you know that 'not showing proper deference' to a LEO is a crime? Even though it's not on the books anywhere, it is. Once some $hithead decides that he's going to run you in for 'something' because you've answered every bloody one of his stupid, pointless questions and you've become irritated with him you find out that it's a crime.

So now that I'm a reserve LEO and I get to go out once in a while and be one of those people I have some basic rules I follow:

1. I do NOT treat everyone like a 'suspect'.
2. Someone holding a firearm and not aiming it at me is not a threat to me and I will not treat them as such without due cause. They might be an off-duty cop or a law abiding citizen. In the case of the latter, if they're still holding a firearm and looking around when I pull up I'm assuming there's a viable threat nearby and the citizen is expecting me to help.
3. Just because someone looks like who I'm looking for does not make them that person.
4. I do NOT ever give people meaningless instructions just to prove how big my d!ck is. The vast majority of people are not idiots and if you start an encounter with stupid instructions you're inviting resistance and when you ask them to do something important you'll find that YOU already escalated the situation.
5. You don't use force all the time because it's easy and seductive to do so. It's easy to get used to it. I know that from the sandbox and I apply it in civilization.
6. A badge and a gun does not make you right. Being right makes you right.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

What was silly was the media cop trying to say that the lit cig was an issue. Let those used to going to gun calls cast the first stone.

A pellet gun is dangerous, but in this circumstance the suspect was not in posession at the time the police showed up and the police overreacted. Even if the suspect was in possession refer to my rule #2.

The problem in Canada or the UK is that your cops tend to treat everyone who has a firearm as a criminal. Even if they're legally in possession.

What surprises me is that you folks don't have more blue-on-blue shootings with that attitude.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

From the media reports, it was a gun call and there was a guy at or near the location where the suspect was later arrested. The guy was asked to drop his lit cig amongst other instructions. No excessive UoF alleged and these things happen at gun calls.

The thing with pointless instructions like "Drop the cigarette or I'll shoot!" is they have nothing to do with officer safety and everything to do with a LEO establishing his/her dominance on site. Notice I'm not saying 'authority'? That's because any cop out there already has authority. But it seems no end of bullies with badges get off on shoving people around and intimidating people for no justifiable reason. You Tube has thousands of videos to validate my opinion and for every incident on video I'm sure there's another thousand that aren't.

When I was active duty my job included traveling with my personal artillery kit and despite the fact that I had the proper paperwork in hand I was an a$$hole magnet for every poophead out to prove something. Did you know that 'not showing proper deference' to a LEO is a crime? Even though it's not on the books anywhere, it is. Once some $hithead decides that he's going to run you in for 'something' because you've answered every bloody one of his stupid, pointless questions and you've become irritated with him you find out that it's a crime.

So now that I'm a reserve LEO and I get to go out once in a while and be one of those people I have some basic rules I follow:

1. I do NOT treat everyone like a 'suspect'.
2. Someone holding a firearm and not aiming it at me is not a threat to me and I will not treat them as such without due cause. They might be an off-duty cop or a law abiding citizen. In the case of the latter, if they're still holding a firearm and looking around when I pull up I'm assuming there's a viable threat nearby and the citizen is expecting me to help.
3. Just because someone looks like who I'm looking for does not make them that person.
4. I do NOT ever give people meaningless instructions just to prove how big my d!ck is. The vast majority of people are not idiots and if you start an encounter with stupid instructions you're inviting resistance and when you ask them to do something important you'll find that YOU already escalated the situation.
5. You don't use force all the time because it's easy and seductive to do so. It's easy to get used to it. I know that from the sandbox and I apply it in civilization.
6. A badge and a gun does not make you right. Being right makes you right.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

What was silly was the media cop trying to say that the lit cig was an issue. Let those used to going to gun calls cast the first stone.

A pellet gun is dangerous, but in this circumstance the suspect was not in posession at the time the police showed up and the police overreacted. Even if the suspect was in possession refer to my rule #2.

The problem in Canada or the UK is that your cops tend to treat everyone who has a firearm as a criminal. Even if they're legally in possession.

Quite frankly I agree with everything you just said. The disrespect that people have for the police now is part & parcel to the way they have been treated .. of course the same goes in reverse to. We often hear about how things were much better between civilians and police respect wise in grandads day (assuming that is true) probably because nobody ever used to hear about stuff like this.

Now every encounter with bad police jades the public opinion towards them and there is so much of it now with the prevalence of video recordings as you just mentioned. Bad press serves to convince police that it really is "them" against "us" with "us" being the public rather then criminals. This isn't anything new. Remember Dirty Harry? Rights of the criminals vs the police was a central theme in that franchise.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

What surprises me is that you folks don't have more blue-on-blue shootings with that attitude.

Why do you think that is? Perhaps it is a direct result of our feelings towards guns in that our police don't go out every day thinking every one they might meet is armed to the teeth and therefore aren't so quick to use deadly force even if they are acting heavy handedly?

[EyeBrock]

Where do the police say "Put your cigarette down or we shoot." Bart?

They don't. You are being a bit of a drama-queen on this one!

I don't know what your point is but going to a gun call at night and having a potential suspect refuse to follow direction isn't good.

This isn't a big deal. The brain-surgeon who wasn't following direction was locked up until his identity was verified. The real suspect was arrested.

Much ado about nothing and nowhere does anybody say having a badge and gun makes you right. Gun point arrests of possibly armed suspects are a part of the job. Looking at the impact factors in this situation, dark, crappy area, non compliant person etc, everything went pretty well.

People carrying guns or possibly carrying guns in Canada is thankfully a rare occurrence. My views on this 'story' are those of a Canadian with more than a modicum of knowledge on the subject. I'm not so sure your views on this one are quite as well briefed.

Obviously things are very different in the US mate, no offence intended.

Oh and I see you have a poster who agrees with you. Very nice.

[BartSimpson]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Where do the police say "Put your cigarette down or we shoot." Bart?

That was clearly implied with illuminating the fellow with a laser sight.

Again, refer to my rule #2. You illuminate me with a laser sight and I reply with deadly force.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

They don't. You are being a bit of a drama-queen on this one!

I don't know what your point is but going to a gun call at night and having a potential suspect refuse to follow direction isn't good.

Refusing to follow stupid instructions isn't the fault of the suspect, it's the fault of the idiot issuing the stupid instructions.

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

This isn't a big deal. The brain-surgeon who wasn't following direction was locked up until his identity was verified. The real suspect was arrested.

Much ado about nothing and nowhere does anybody say having a badge and gun makes you right. Gun point arrests of possibly armed suspects are a part of the job. Looking at the impact factors in this situation, dark, crappy area, non compliant person etc, everything went pretty well.

People carrying guns or possibly carrying guns in Canada is thankfully a rare occurrence. My views on this 'story' are those of a Canadian with more than a modicum of knowledge on the subject. I'm not so sure your views on this one are quite as well briefed.

Perhaps not as much as yourself, but enough to satisfy myself. Do you recall that I contemplated moving to Victoria and joining the VicPD? Ever wonder why I didn't?

$1:

Obviously things are very different in the US mate, no offence intended.

Indeed, and that's why I didn't sign on with the VicPD.

$1:

Oh and I see you have a poster who agrees with you. Very nice.

He's one of your fellow citizens. One of those people you serve. Take note of his opinions, okay?

[EyeBrock]

The red dot was a taser and I suppose you could (despite the lawyers from Taser International) stretch that to deadly force. Even the non-compliant guy on the video said it was a taser.

And on refusing to follow instructions, are you for real? It's the cops fault if the subject refuses to comply? Wow.

I don't know what's up with you today but your rebuttals make no sense and lack any real point.

Are you telling me that if police responding to a gun call outside a building you are standing in front of and they do the old "police, don't move" thing with pistols drawn, you are going to respond with 'deadly force'? Really? Or even a taser laser dot will get you responding with 'deadly force'?

Come on.....say it isn't so.