[EyeBrock]

I think the under-populated areas could benefit from some kind of fast track system for either getting landed status quicker or a year off the 3 year wait for citizenship.

A decent carrot would do the job better than trying to force people away from Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver with restrictive and Charter problematic legislation.

Queue jumpers that go to areas where immigrants are needed should be encouraged.

[jeff744]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think the under-populated areas could benefit from some kind of fast track system for either getting landed status quicker or a year off the 3 year wait for citizenship.

A decent carrot would do the job better than trying to force people away from Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver with restrictive and Charter problematic legislation.

Queue jumpers that go to areas where immigrants are needed should be encouraged.

Yeah, I would like to see some system that made an agreement to fast track you under a contract to stay and work for X years. I believe it is after about 5 that most settle down and are less likely to move.

[EyeBrock]

Interesting chatting with you on this Jeff. You have some good input.

[Benn]

Kitsune_H Kitsune_H:

I'm quite grateful that my parents, despite being portuguese immigrants, always spoke in English when I was young, back in Ontario. I can't help but feel that it happens too often that language becomes not just a barrier against integration, but a factor for cultural barricading in Canada. By cultural barricading, I mean how some immigrants rarely have to use english or french, since they have the possibility of living in Canada while interacting solely in their native language, with immigrants from the same country as themselves.

I'm a clinical psychologist, not an educational psychologist, but I do know the basics, or at least those needed to make a semi-rational response to this.

Language is a process of codification and decodification of ideas, through the means of a determined set of symbols. These symbols may be aural (spoken word, sounds), or visual (writing, sign language, symbols). And, for all linguistic methods, as well as for input and output, different parts of the brain are used. In my practice at a geriatric home, I've seen several cases that exemplify this: an old lady who could understand what we said, but couldn't find the words to express most basic thoughts. People who can hear us clearly, but cannot understand a language unless it's written.

So, we must conclude that, in order to test someone to see if they are fluent in a language, we must test not speech and writing, but oral comprehension, oral expression, written comprehension, and written expression. Four factors, not two.

It is possible that a written test and the bureaucratic necessities are good enough a predictor of acceptable comprehension levels, but not to certify the immigrant for the level of expression needed for full interaction. Actually, one could argue that conversational french or english is overwhelmingly more important than a baseline knowledge of Canadian culture.

Another fault of the current test for Canadian Citizenship is, as Martin14 pointed out, is the effect of memorization. One can memorize facts about Canadian geography and history, or even law, but that memorization does not correlate directly to abstract rationality, the capability of a candidate to "think within the culture", or see how the cultural norms apply to their particular situation. In other words, just because you know the law, doesn't mean you know how to behave.

All in all, the language tests have to ensure that the candidate could function in a purely Canadian society, fully interacting with other people in one of the official languages. So, of course, they need to be reformulated, and the difficulty needs to be kicked up a notch.

We need more immigrant families like Kitsune and Brenda.


Basically the sum of my thoughts on immigration in general was expressed back in my CIC days when I was at a diplomatic "let's remind each other how important we are" event and I had some diplomat from Slovakia bitching at me about the fact we require his people to have visa's to visit Canada and they don't require Canadians to have them to visit Slovakia and I failed in my diplomacy skills by telling him, "How many Canadians do you have coming to Slovakia and not leaving?" As he turned flush, either from shock and anger or just being a lush, or both, I added "We have such a long line up to get into our country from every country in the world we can afford to be picky, I don't think we are picky enough."

Never got an invite to one of those things again lol.

Would a competitive company hire an employee because they felt sorry for them or would they hire the ones who will produce for them and help them get bigger and better?

Until we are busy begging for people to come here why not be picky? It's in our best interests.

[BRAH]

[bootlegga]

martin14 martin14:

$1:

Then there is the fact that they will be immersed in an English/French speaking culture, they will end up learning more of the language just by going shopping.

This is a myth, and a pretty bad one, too.

I don't agree with that.

Prior to living and working in Japan, I knew very little Japanese - but after spending time shopping, banking, working, etc. - I picked enough to hold conversations. I lived in Taiwan for a shorter period, but once again, I picked up a half decent grasp of Mandarin. I might not have been able to read the newspaper, but I could talk to people on the street.

Being fully immersed in a foreign culture and language, one picks it up fairly quickly.

The problem here is that there are so many ethnic enclaves where immigrants can hang out in and not get fully immersed in the language and culture. I know several Chinese immigrants - and those that only hang out with other Chinese people speak English far worse than those that hang out with Canadians.

Depending on the city, those enclaves can range from Asians to Europeans to Indians to Africans. Edmonton, for example, has a large Ukrainian/Polish population and I know several, who despite living here for decades, can barely speak English, because they only go to doctors/lawyers/grocery stores/etc where people speak Polish/Ukrainian.

[bootlegga]

jeff744 jeff744:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I think the under-populated areas could benefit from some kind of fast track system for either getting landed status quicker or a year off the 3 year wait for citizenship.

A decent carrot would do the job better than trying to force people away from Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver with restrictive and Charter problematic legislation.

Queue jumpers that go to areas where immigrants are needed should be encouraged.

Yeah, I would like to see some system that made an agreement to fast track you under a contract to stay and work for X years. I believe it is after about 5 that most settle down and are less likely to move.

I've said that for a long time too - I don't have a problem with immigration and would actually be happy to increase it - if it was more spread out instead of 80% of them going to Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver.

[martin14]

You don't agree, then turn around and prove exactly how it can happen..


Thanks

[bootlegga]

There are exceptions to every rule...

[Lemmy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

The problem here is that there are so many ethnic enclaves where immigrants can hang out in and not get fully immersed in the language and culture. I know several Chinese immigrants - and those that only hang out with other Chinese people speak English far worse than those that hang out with Canadians.

Depending on the city, those enclaves can range from Asians to Europeans to Indians to Africans. Edmonton, for example, has a large Ukrainian/Polish population and I know several, who despite living here for decades, can barely speak English, because they only go to doctors/lawyers/grocery stores/etc where people speak Polish/Ukrainian.

That's true of English speaking immigrants as well. My parents didn't integrate. They hung out with other Scots. And as for language, most people'd pick up little more of what my parents say, IN ENGLISH, than what a Chinese immigrant says in Chinese. It doesn't matter if immigrants integrate with the rest of Canadian society. It doesn't matter if they learn English or French. What matters is whether their kids fit in or not. I'd say most immigrants' children do. Just go to the mall sometime. Lots of different races among the teenagers, all of them speaking English and acting pretty Canadian.

[jeff744]

bootlegga bootlegga:

There are exceptions to every rule...

yup, and changing rules based on those exceptions often ends up causing more damage than good. Nothing is perfect but our system is doing pretty damned well in comparison to other countries.

[redhatmamma]

Agree with the proposal. Immigration needs to be tied to the economy and the needs of Canada first.

[Heycronie]

jeff744 jeff744:

Actually, Albert and Sask just need more immigrants period. Our cities are actually running out of people to employ, the people that are unemployed are generally handicapped in some form or deadbeats. I used to work at Denny's, they were forced to bring in three cooks from Bangladesh because there were not enough people applying for the job.

That's bullshit. There is plenty of people to employ and Sask is enjoying great employment and it isn't from immigrants. Fast-food, there's your answer.

[Heycronie]

jeff744 jeff744:

bootlegga bootlegga:

There are exceptions to every rule...

yup, and changing rules based on those exceptions often ends up causing more damage than good. Nothing is perfect but our system is doing pretty damned well in comparison to other countries.

Maybe those other countries don't have human rights commissioners dictating what can be said what can't be said, who you should hire and how many of 'those' you should hire and if you don't you are...RACIST. Canadians are pretty quiet on said issues than most. Racism is a card played tooooooo much in this country. Maybe we are too ....'polite'.

[jeff744]

Heycronie Heycronie:

jeff744 jeff744:

Actually, Albert and Sask just need more immigrants period. Our cities are actually running out of people to employ, the people that are unemployed are generally handicapped in some form or deadbeats. I used to work at Denny's, they were forced to bring in three cooks from Bangladesh because there were not enough people applying for the job.

That's bullshit. There is plenty of people to employ and Sask is enjoying great employment and it isn't from immigrants. Fast-food, there's your answer.

Wow, here is a little taste of Saskatchewan for you. I am from a small town (Biggar), in our small town we have two doctors, likely to have a third soon, of those doctors not a single one is from Canada. The local subway is owned by immigrants who are actually quite liked. Immigrants are gradually filling up jobs that need to be filled because the town does not have enough people willing to work the lower paying jobs. We have the people to do it overall but anyone that is not employed in the town is either a deadbeat or handicapped.

In the city the situation is the exact same, in fact I applied to a business that paid $14/hr and they almost instantly had me filling out paperwork to be employed there because nobody was applying. I walk down the street and see help wanted signs popping up in the food court of a university, the place where people need money the most.