[BartSimpson]

From http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis.asp

A speech by Mark Steyn at Hillsdale College.

The entire speech can be found at the link. I'm excerpting the highlights.

$1:

If you go back to 1945, the Royal Canadian Navy had the world’s third largest surface fleet, the Royal Canadian Air Force was one of the world’s most effective air forces, and Canadian troops got the toughest beach on D-Day. But in the space of two generations, a bunch of tough hombres were transformed into a thoroughly feminized culture that prioritizes all the secondary impulses of society—welfare entitlements from cradle to grave—over all the primary ones. And in that, Canada is obviously not alone. If the O’Sullivan thesis is flawed, it’s only because the lumberjack song could stand as the post-war history of almost the entire developed world.

Steyn has a point here. Were D-Day to happen today a fair many of the cowards on this site (who know who they are when I call them cowards) would fail to fight for Canada and would argue that the war in Europe has nothing to do with Canada as an excuse for their cowardice.

$1:

To some extent, these differences between the two countries were present at their creations. America’s Founders wrote of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” The equivalent phrase at Canada’s founding was “peace, order and good government” —which words are not only drier and desiccated and stir the blood less, but they also presume a degree of statist torpor. Ronald Reagan famously said, “We are a nation that has a government, not the other way around.” In Canada it too often seems the other way around.

Steyn accurately grasps this fundamental difference in the cultural views of liberal Canadians and the majority of (even including liberal) Americans.

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All that being said, if you remove health care from the equation, the differences between our two economies become relatively marginal. The Fraser Institute’s “Economic Freedom of the World 2007 Annual Report” ranks the U.S. and Canada together, tied in fifth place along with Britain. And here’s an interesting point: The top ten most free economies in this report are Hong Kong, Singapore, New Zealand, Switzerland, United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Estonia, Ireland, and Australia. With the exception of Switzerland and Estonia, these systems are all British-derived. They’re what Jacques Chirac dismissively calls les anglo-saxon. And he and many other Continentals make it very clear that they regard free market capitalism as some sort of kinky Anglo-Saxon fetish.

Interesting stuff.

$1:

On the other hand, Andrew Roberts, the author of A History of the English-Speaking Peoples since 1900, points out that the two most corrupt jurisdictions in North America are Louisiana and Quebec—both French-derived. Quebec has a civil service that employs the same number of people as California’s, even though California has a population nearly five times the size.

No wonder Quebec needs to have equalization payments! Cripes, the whole bloody province is on the provincial payroll in one form or another!

$1:

Not that long ago, I heard a CBC news anchor announce that Canada had “created 56,100 new jobs in the previous month.” It sounded like good news. But looking at the numbers, I found that of those 56,100 new jobs, 4,200 were self-employed, 8,900 were in private businesses, and the remaining 43,000 were on the public payroll. In other words, 77 percent of the new jobs were government jobs paid for by the poor slobs working away in the remaining 23 percent. So it wasn’t good news, it was bad news about the remorseless transfer of human resources from the vital dynamic sector to the state.

Speaks for itself.

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A Canadian woman has given birth to extremely rare identical quadruplets. The four girls were born at a U.S. hospital because there was no space available at Canadian neonatal intensive care units. Autumn, Brook, Calissa, and Dahlia are in good condition at Benefice Hospital in Great Falls, Montana. Health officials said they checked every other neonatal intensive care unit in Canada, but none had space. The Jepps, a nurse and a respiratory technician were flown 500 kilometers to the Montana hospital, the closest in the U.S., where the quadruplets were born on Sunday.

There you have Canadian health care in a nutshell. After all, you can’t expect a G-7 economy of only 30 million people to be able to offer the same level of neonatal intensive care coverage as a town of 50,000 in remote, rural Montana. And let’s face it, there’s nothing an expectant mom likes more on the day of delivery than 300 miles in a bumpy twin prop over the Rockies. Everyone knows that socialized health care means you wait and wait and wait—six months for an MRI, a year for a hip replacement, and so on. But here is the absolute logical reductio of a government monopoly in health care: the ten month waiting list for the maternity ward.

Yep, if the USA adopts Canadian style health care where are the Canadians going to go?

$1:

In that most basic sense, American progressives who look to Canada are wrong. Not only is Canada’s path not a model for America, it’s not a viable model for Canada. As Canadians are about to discover, the future belongs to those who show up for it.

Ouch.

[DerbyX]

That post is beneath you. All to often you post about your dislike of Canadians telling Americans how to govern themselves and you post a nonesense post from an obviously wrong individual whose conclusions can be defeated quite easily.

Why do you hate Canadians telling you how to live when you seem to post an article by an uninformed asshole who obviously doesn't have the necessary intelligence or education to post such garbage and agree with it?

I haven't got the energy to begin my typewriter response but fuck him. Our economy seems to be doing fairly well and nobody has posted about the US adopting "ours". Why would we. We are an exporter economy and yours is a service and importer economy. Ours is based around primary resources and yours around secondary industrial production and technologies with the bulk of finances to boot.

Beneath you. Especially the misinformed coward comment that wrongly believes that becasue we don't agree with bombing muslims back to the stone age we wouldn't defend Canada and I'm talking about Streaker.

Beneath you.

[Scape]

Who are you calling cowards Bart?

[Canadian_Mind]

Derby, I thought it was rather intelligent and one of Bart's better posts. Only part I don't agree with is the medical part.

While I agree that our system is complete shit, I don't like America's model better. I'd much prefer if for our health care we went with something liek the british system, where there is room for everyone, doctors get bonuses based on how accurate and effective they are, and people don't leave hospital until they are physically fit to do so.

Scape Scape:

Who are you calling cowards Bart?

Think he is reffering to people liek Streaker. You weren't one fo the folks that first went through my head when he brought up the cowardice aspect of our forum populous.

[DerbyX]

$1:

Derby, I thought it was rather intelligent and one of Bart's better posts. Only part I don't agree with is the medical part.

No. His better posts aren't cheer-leading nonesense from an article from some asshole who shouldn't even be allowed to sit near a computer let alone use one.

This is ill thought out garbage from somebody who takes a dim view of Candians pointing out the things in our country that are better then the US and saying they should adopt them.

We should not be telling any country to adopt our way of things. Thats wrong.

$1:

While I agree that our system is complete shit, I don't like America's model better. I'd much prefer if for our health care we went with something liek the british system, where there is room for everyone, doctors get bonuses based on how accurate and effective they are, and people don't leave hospital until they are physically fit to do so.

WTF? Our system is shit? What? Economics? Gov't? Health? what?

BTW, our system is very similiar to the Brit system in terms of healthcare. Very similiar. Ask Eyebrock or Pluggyrug.

$1:

Think he is reffering to people liek Streaker. You weren't one fo the folks that first went through my head when he brought up the cowardice aspect of our forum populous.

I will stack Streaker up against you or anyone else in terms of courage. You may think its cowardice to actually want peace in the world but quite frankly that is just sad dude.

[Canadian_Mind]

DerbyX DerbyX:

No. His better posts aren't cheer-leading nonesense from an article from some asshole who shouldn't even be allowed to sit near a computer let alone use one.

This is ill thought out garbage from somebody who takes a dim view of Candians pointing out the things in our country that are better then the US and saying they should adopt them.

We should not be telling any country to adopt our way of things. Thats wrong.

The article started off by complimenting us and actually acknowledging our history with a sense of accuracy. That takes alot of intelligence to pull off. Even Canadian kids my age don't know our own history.

Where have we told someone to adopt our way of things?

$1:

WTF? Our system is shit? What? Economics? Gov't? Health? what?

BTW, our system is very similiar to the Brit system in terms of healthcare. Very similiar. Ask Eyebrock or Pluggyrug.

Yea, our system sucks. Waiting times are far to long, hospitals are way too crouded, treatment waits are too long.

For the most part what I admired most about the British system is the setup with the doctors. Seems to me that out here the goal is for pharasuitcal companies to make as much dough as possible, not about making people healthier.

Other then that, I'd liek for our system to be more efficient as far as processing patients and treatment goes, but i'm afraid I myself don't know how.

$1:

I will stack Streaker up against you or anyone else in terms of courage. You may think its cowardice to actually want peace in the world but quite frankly that is just sad dude.

There are people who are brave, and people who are visionairies. Streaker is visionary in that he wants world peace, and frankly I think any sane individual would. Problem is, he hasn't given us a way to get that peace.

[Arctic_Menace]

I won't argue that is the past 60 odd years or so, Canada has fallen from grace, but this guy is still wrong for the most part.

The fact that America currently sits in the toilet while we cruise on by is evidence of the success of the "Canadian model"...

[Canadian_Mind]

we aren't exactly cruising anymore, we've hit some rough ground ourselves now.

So has everyone else mind you.

[DerbyX]

$1:

The article started off by complimenting us and actually acknowledging our history with a sense of accuracy. That takes alot of intelligence to pull off. Even Canadian kids my age don't know our own history.

No. The article started off by basically at the tail end of WW2 saying we were kick ass when we were a military oriented US like society. We did have a sizable force but an unsustainable one by any country who wants things like education and healthcare.

$1:

Where have we told someone to adopt our way of things?

I haven't. Some have. The article seems to think we want them to adopt our system at the same time as telling us to adopt theirs.

neither is acceptable.

$1:

Yea, our system sucks. Waiting times are far to long, hospitals are way too crouded, treatment waits are too long.

Narrow your parameters.

Healthcare? I bet you haven't seen healthcare beyond the borders of your township let alone another country.

I have. I work in healthcare. The same problems that we have so do other nations like Australia and the UK. I hav elived in 6 different CDN cities and very rarely did I ever encounter exceptionally long wait times.

I will point out that Canada spends less per capita then all those nations you think we should emulate.

See the answer? That means all we have to do is pay more per person but any federal party attempting this won't win, To do it they must either raise taxes or cut spending elsewhere.

See the problem? You should. The voter is the reason for it.

$1:

For the most part what I admired most about the British system is the setup with the doctors. Seems to me that out here the goal is for pharasuitcal companies to make as much dough as possible, not about making people healthier.

Why don't you explain how their system differs from ours at the same time ackowledging the reasons why and the counter measures we employ.

Now factor in healthcare spending per capita to provide a fair yardstick.

$1:

Other then that, I'd liek for our system to be more efficient as far as processing patients and treatment goes, but i'm afraid I myself don't know how.

Our system is extremely efficient in terms of healthcare spending going to actual healthcare rather then adminsitration. Far better then the US. We are extremely efficient. We just invest far less money then other countries.

Pay more tax or ask Harper to stop blowing 25 billion dollars per yeartrying to buy votes.

$1:

There are people who are brave, and people who are visionairies. Streaker is visionary in that he wants world peace, and frankly I think any sane individual would. Problem is, he hasn't given us a way to get that peace.

Thats because Streaker realizes that bombing the fuck out of muslims countries isn't the answer. More peopleminding their own buisness is the first, second, and third step though.

[Canadian_Mind]

Whether the force was sustainable or not doesn't matter. What does matter is that someone besides a historian accurately knew our history.

I agree with your second point about us adapting to them and telling them to adapt is not acceptable.

Waiting times at the ER aren't so bad. I had to wait about an hour for a stab wound that was non-life threatening. But for specialist care, it takes months or even years.

As for health care, i'd love a government that would have the guts to put more money into health care. It's one of the reasons why I support the NDP in my profile. These recent tax cuts, aside for the lowest bracket, are just stupid. Should have put the money to health care and military.

What I've read and seen about the british system is that in addition to their base pay, British doctors get significant bonuses when they accurately diagnose patients, and when they provide efficient remedies.

At no point did I say we should spend less, and it saddens me that we don't spend more per capita than what we do now.

As for streaker, we aren't bombing the Muslim countries, they are bombing each other or the american's are bombing them. We are in Afghanistan trying to create stability for those people. Even if you don't feel that is one of the reasons why we are there, Staying there until they can support themselves and keep themselves stable, the stability we help create is a benifit for those people. Yes the country isn't as stable as before we went in, but we went in for different reasons back then. Now it's up to us to recreate stability since we're the ones who fucked the place up in the first place.

No one has explained to me how pulling out of Afghanistan will create peace.

[DerbyX]

$1:

Whether the force was sustainable or not doesn't matter. What does matter is that someone besides a historian accurately knew our history.

Knowing our history and impling we should have sustained the trend is as bad as somebody suggesting we should still be a brit colony.

$1:

I agree with your second point about us adapting to them and telling them to adapt is not acceptable.

Good. We will get along far better with the US when neither side is telling the other how to live their lives.

$1:

Waiting times at the ER aren't so bad. I had to wait about an hour for a stab wound that was non-life threatening. But for specialist care, it takes months or even years.

Primary care Vs secondary care. Our system is designed for affordable and universally available primary care but it lacks secondary care capacity to the same extent.

We pay less per capita then most others.

Solution? We need to pay more. Raise taxes or shift spending if we want more healthcare.

Pick one.

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As for health care, i'd love a government that would have the guts to put more money into health care. It's one of the reasons why I support the NDP in my profile. These recent tax cuts, aside for the lowest bracket, are just stupid. Should have put the money to health care and military.

The NDP platform (aside from the military). Yet they don't win. Why? You should know this. We vote by pocketbook. Thats why tax cut promises win out.

Thats why Harper promised them knowing full well he couldn't deliver. He had to. They all do in order to get elected.

$1:

What I've read and seen about the british system is that in addition to their base pay, British doctors get significant bonuses when they accurately diagnose patients, and when they provide efficient remedies.

Thats not correct. Then have an NHS (national heath system) which is almost synonmous with our healthcare minus the provinces.

They have a doctor rating system that affects employment and status, a system that breeds a whole new set of problems.

$1:

At no point did I say we should spend less, and it saddens me that we don't spend more per capita than what we do now.

I didn't say you did. What I did say is that Canada pays less per capita then many of the countries we say our system should be like.

Most people think we need a policy change to emulate those systems. Thats wrong. All we need is money (love we got).

$1:

As for streaker, we aren't bombing the Muslim countries, they are bombing each other or the american's are bombing them. We are in Afghanistan trying to create stability for those people. Even if you don't feel that is one of the reasons why we are there, Staying there until they can support themselves and keep themselves stable, the stability we help create is a benifit for those people. Yes the country isn't as stable as before we went in, but we went in for different reasons back then. Now it's up to us to recreate stability since we're the ones who fucked the place up in the first place.

thats crap. We could be doing far more for far more people without the war yet everytime it is suggested Canada send food or medecine or money without soldiers then people go apeshit.

mind our own buisness. Help when its asked and work with others for a solution rather then following the US into a makeshift war they invented and one that would not have happened had OBL been handed over.

$1:

No one has explained to me how pulling out of Afghanistan will create peace.

We don't have peace now. Judging by the con rhetoric we won't get it for 20 years.

We won't get it through force of arms Not against an enemy religiously motivate dand drawing srength from the very people we think we are helping.

Query? Has Israel achieved peace?

[Canadian_Mind]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Knowing our history and impling we should have sustained the trend is as bad as somebody suggesting we should still be a brit colony.

Primary care Vs secondary care. Our system is designed for affordable and universally available primary care but it lacks secondary care capacity to the same extent.

We pay less per capita then most others.

Solution? We need to pay more. Raise taxes or shift spending if we want more healthcare.

Pick one.

The NDP platform (aside from the military). Yet they don't win. Why? You should know this. We vote by pocketbook. Thats why tax cut promises win out.

Thats why Harper promised them knowing full well he couldn't deliver. He had to. They all do in order to get elected.

Thats not correct. Then have an NHS (national heath system) which is almost synonmous with our healthcare minus the provinces.

They have a doctor rating system that affects employment and status, a system that breeds a whole new set of problems.

I didn't say you did. What I did say is that Canada pays less per capita then many of the countries we say our system should be like.

Most people think we need a policy change to emulate those systems. Thats wrong. All we need is money (love we got).

I think he was suggesting that we shoudl keep the same "get things done" mentality as we had during WW2, not the military itself.

Then we should put more money to secondary care. I suggest reversing the GST cuts made by the Harper government.

I also think that the conservatives should cut some of the more useless social programs and redirect cash to medical.

I have, both.

Sorry, but it seemed to me liek you were implying that I didn't want taxes raised or money redirected. Hence why you wouldn't drop the topic of tzxes and shit. I agree with you that more money is needed, and that raising taxes or redirecting money in the budget is the way to get it. I know money doesn't appear out of thin air.

$1:

thats crap. We could be doing far more for far more people without the war yet everytime it is suggested Canada send food or medecine or money without soldiers then people go apeshit.

mind our own buisness. Help when its asked and work with others for a solution rather then following the US into a makeshift war they invented and one that would not have happened had OBL been handed over.

We don't have peace now. Judging by the con rhetoric we won't get it for 20 years.

We won't get it through force of arms Not against an enemy religiously motivate dand drawing srength from the very people we think we are helping.

Query? Has Israel achieved peace?

I advocate that we have as many people there rebuilding as we do military personelle providing security, protection, and fighting on the "front lines." We should eb doing far more then what we already are, and frankly I have yet to see anyone go apeshit over the suggestion of sending more aid. what i go apeshit over is the idea that we should conversely cut the military support in favour of aid. We shoudl be doing both.

while the US started this war, we were asked by them to help. We have since been asked by the Afghans to continue with our military presence at the same tiems they ask for more aid.

Israel will never have peace as long as those nations around it want it destroyed.

[BartSimpson]

Scape Scape:

Who are you calling cowards Bart?

Not you. And not anyone whom I have not already called a coward. The cowards know who they are and I'll leave it to them to press their case that they are the cowards I speak of.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

That post is beneath you. All to often you post about your dislike of Canadians telling Americans how to govern themselves and you post a nonesense post from an obviously wrong individual whose conclusions can be defeated quite easily.

Why do you hate Canadians telling you how to live when you seem to post an article by an uninformed asshole who obviously doesn't have the necessary intelligence or education to post such garbage and agree with it?

I haven't got the energy to begin my typewriter response but fuck him. Our economy seems to be doing fairly well and nobody has posted about the US adopting "ours". Why would we. We are an exporter economy and yours is a service and importer economy. Ours is based around primary resources and yours around secondary industrial production and technologies with the bulk of finances to boot.

Beneath you. Especially the misinformed coward comment that wrongly believes that becasue we don't agree with bombing muslims back to the stone age we wouldn't defend Canada and I'm talking about Streaker.

Beneath you.

Mark Steyn is a Canadian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn

And I am quoting him. I did not write his speech, I would assume that he did.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

That post is beneath you. All to often you post about your dislike of Canadians telling Americans how to govern themselves and you post a nonesense post from an obviously wrong individual whose conclusions can be defeated quite easily.

Why do you hate Canadians telling you how to live when you seem to post an article by an uninformed asshole who obviously doesn't have the necessary intelligence or education to post such garbage and agree with it?

I haven't got the energy to begin my typewriter response but fuck him. Our economy seems to be doing fairly well and nobody has posted about the US adopting "ours". Why would we. We are an exporter economy and yours is a service and importer economy. Ours is based around primary resources and yours around secondary industrial production and technologies with the bulk of finances to boot.

Beneath you. Especially the misinformed coward comment that wrongly believes that becasue we don't agree with bombing muslims back to the stone age we wouldn't defend Canada and I'm talking about Streaker.

Beneath you.

Mark Steyn is a Canadian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Steyn

And I am quoting him. I did not write his speech, I would assume that he did.

If I quoted Micheal Moore as a source for criticism of the US how much validity would you give it?

(admit it. That was a good rebut.)

C'mon.