[herbie]

$1:

Distributing/downloading copyrighted material isn't child porn but it's still illegal. A crime is a crime.

Yeah it is. And it's up to them to catch people, not me. It's up to ISPs like me to give you access to the Internet, not police what you do with it. Cops, Judges and MPs are just like any other customer. You want me to do extra work? Than you'll PAY for it. You DEMAND I do extra work, you're told to fuck off. You paid for a loaf of bread, the peanut butter is extra.

[bootlegga]

Proculation Proculation:

herbie herbie:

This is a forum, not an ISP. The ISP that hosts it will have the IPs of people accessing it in it's logs.
I'm not worrying over child porn, the right RCMP dept. contacts me and I'll turn the perv in, that's right in our users TOS clause. Nailed one last winter.
This WILL be used to eventually hunt down downloaders and file sharers, to go on fishing expeditions, etc.

Distributing/downloading copyrighted material isn't child porn but it's still illegal. A crime is a crime. The sentence isn't the same tho.

Actually, under current laws it is not a crime. It is illegal to upload, but not download. The last time it was ruled on, it was considered similar to having a photocopier in a library.

I think Herbie nailed this one right on the head.

All this bill does is set up the ability to have law enforcement to add this to their job description. Sorry, but I'd rather see more beat cops walking neighbourhoods and traffic cops nailing speeders than see IT police officers tracking 10 year old music downloaders.

[gangstalking]

current-events-f59/isps-must-help-police-snoop-on-internet-under-new-bill-t75898-15.html

Already being discussed here.

[gangstalking]

double post

[Dayseed]

Proculation Proculation:

Dayseed, you are sure the Internet is "private" ? Your computer is private but when you send information on a chat room, it's public. But when you send an IM to someone, I think that's where the gray zone is. It can be intercepted by a lot of people while a telephone call can only be intercepted by the carrier.

Yup. The notion of private is your intended recipient. If you exchange banking information online with your bank, presumably, you're consenting to TD being a recipient of the "communication". Rogers, intercepting the information, is NOT an intended recipient, even though they are used to relay the information.

The Criminal Code defines a private communication as: "private communication" means any oral communication, or any telecommunication, that is made by an originator who is in Canada or is intended by the originator to be received by a person who is in Canada and that is made under circumstances in which it is reasonable for the originator to expect that it will not be intercepted by any person other than the person intended by the originator to receive it, and includes any radio-based telephone communication that is treated electronically or otherwise for the purpose of preventing intelligible reception by any person other than the person intended by the originator to receive it;

See why this bill is necessary? Internet communications need to be defined. Is accessing a certain webpage a "communication"? Privacy is generally held to be anything a person chooses not to disseminate to the public. So...what about going to a government webpage?

[Dayseed]

herbie herbie:

Yeah it is. And it's up to them to catch people, not me. It's up to ISPs like me to give you access to the Internet, not police what you do with it. Cops, Judges and MPs are just like any other customer. You want me to do extra work? Than you'll PAY for it. You DEMAND I do extra work, you're told to fuck off. You paid for a loaf of bread, the peanut butter is extra.

Nope. You want to do business in Canada? You'll give me the peanut butter for free or I'll run you the fuck out of the country and let a competitor who plays my game take your market-share. How would your board of directors feel about free peanut butter under those circumstances?

[DerbyX]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Proculation Proculation:

Dayseed, you are sure the Internet is "private" ? Your computer is private but when you send information on a chat room, it's public. But when you send an IM to someone, I think that's where the gray zone is. It can be intercepted by a lot of people while a telephone call can only be intercepted by the carrier.

Yup. The notion of private is your intended recipient. If you exchange banking information online with your bank, presumably, you're consenting to TD being a recipient of the "communication". Rogers, intercepting the information, is NOT an intended recipient, even though they are used to relay the information.

The Criminal Code defines a private communication as: "private communication" means any oral communication, or any telecommunication, that is made by an originator who is in Canada or is intended by the originator to be received by a person who is in Canada and that is made under circumstances in which it is reasonable for the originator to expect that it will not be intercepted by any person other than the person intended by the originator to receive it, and includes any radio-based telephone communication that is treated electronically or otherwise for the purpose of preventing intelligible reception by any person other than the person intended by the originator to receive it;

See why this bill is necessary? Internet communications need to be defined. Is accessing a certain webpage a "communication"? Privacy is generally held to be anything a person chooses not to disseminate to the public. So...what about going to a government webpage?

Out of curiosity what is the legal status of PMs/emails as it pertains to the site owners? For instance if you and I were communicating via CKA PM system trade secrets or something could Trevor legally access our PMs (assuming the system is designed so the site owner can do that) and use that info to his advantage legally?

Ditto sites like Yahoo and Hotmail.

[SprCForr]

Merged with existing thread.

[Dayseed]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Out of curiosity what is the legal status of PMs/emails as it pertains to the site owners? For instance if you and I were communicating via CKA PM system trade secrets or something could Trevor legally access our PMs (assuming the system is designed so the site owner can do that) and use that info to his advantage legally?

Ditto sites like Yahoo and Hotmail.

If we could prove Trevor intercepted our messages, he'd be guilty of a crime. Trevor's site is merely a relay medium for our private communications, the same as Bell's telephone lines; he has no more colour of right to our messages than Bell does our telephone calls.

However, if Trevor was doing legitimate upgrades or maintenance work and stumbled across our messages as a legitimate consequence of his work, then no, he wouldn't have committed a crime. But, we'd have the option of suing him in civil court over his use of trade secrets.

[DerbyX]

I see, thanks. Now are cell phones a different beast because they broadcast signals that can be picked up by anyone? I seem to recall that shortwave radio and CB communications weren't ones where the user had an expectation of privacy given the medium.

[Dayseed]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I see, thanks. Now are cell phones a different beast because they broadcast signals that can be picked up by anyone? I seem to recall that shortwave radio and CB communications weren't ones where the user had an expectation of privacy given the medium.

Nope, cell-phones have an expectation of privacy. CB radio doesn't have the same expectation of privacy because I'm broadcasting to whomever's listening.

[DerbyX]

I feel much better now thanks. I'll PM you my secret recipe for asparagus smoothies. We'll be billionaires as long as nobody steals it.

[Dayseed]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I feel much better now thanks. I'll PM you my secret recipe for asparagus smoothies. We'll be billionaires as long as nobody steals it.

I like my asparagus smoothie with a white vinegar twist. Let somebody steal that!

[herbie]

Dayseed Dayseed:

herbie herbie:

Yeah it is. And it's up to them to catch people, not me. It's up to ISPs like me to give you access to the Internet, not police what you do with it. Cops, Judges and MPs are just like any other customer. You want me to do extra work? Than you'll PAY for it. You DEMAND I do extra work, you're told to fuck off. You paid for a loaf of bread, the peanut butter is extra.

Nope. You want to do business in Canada? You'll give me the peanut butter for free or I'll run you the fuck out of the country and let a competitor who plays my game take your market-share. How would your board of directors feel about free peanut butter under those circumstances?

I'll leave you to the ISPs that give peanut butter FREE plus all the jam you can eat FREE and 24/7 instant service FREE*.


*With signing of a punitive four year contract at $11 a month more than the guy who declined the FREE offerings and 'instant service' begins the minute you can make someone who doesn't speak English understand WTF you want.

[Dayseed]

herbie herbie:

Dayseed Dayseed:

herbie herbie:

Yeah it is. And it's up to them to catch people, not me. It's up to ISPs like me to give you access to the Internet, not police what you do with it. Cops, Judges and MPs are just like any other customer. You want me to do extra work? Than you'll PAY for it. You DEMAND I do extra work, you're told to fuck off. You paid for a loaf of bread, the peanut butter is extra.

Nope. You want to do business in Canada? You'll give me the peanut butter for free or I'll run you the fuck out of the country and let a competitor who plays my game take your market-share. How would your board of directors feel about free peanut butter under those circumstances?

I'll leave you to the ISPs that give peanut butter FREE plus all the jam you can eat FREE and 24/7 instant service FREE*.


*With signing of a punitive four year contract at $11 a month more than the guy who declined the FREE offerings and 'instant service' begins the minute you can make someone who doesn't speak English understand WTF you want.

Great! I'll leave you to eat peach-pits out of dumpsters rueing over your decision. Enjoy the unemployment line! Hey, maybe you can work for that junky ISP you're describing!