bootlegga bootlegga:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Both sides can blame each other to the end of time, but the reality is that if Hamas didn't launch their horrific attack last weekend on Israel, this almost certainly wouldn't have happened. Therefore, IMHO, the fault with that tragedy falls squarely on Hamas.
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
You can say that for either side, if you choose an arbitrary point in time. Back up a month. Palestinians, around 20, were killed in the West Bank. Ben-Gavir decided to inflame things by praying at the Al Asqua Mosque. And he did that, knowing there would be blowback from Palestinians.
But it's not an arbitrary point in time - it was literally the first shot in a new war.
Japan had to accept responsibility for everything that happened after Pearl Harbor, and so too does Hamas have to accept responsibility for all the carnage their sneak attack will cause.
Had Hamas not launched that attack, there would almost certainly not have been thousands of rockets getting fired into Israel or airstrikes in Gaza, so I stand by my assertion that Hamas owns 100% of the responsibility for the carnage at that hospital.
But that is arbitrary. That might have been the first shot in the current war, but it was also the last shot in the previous war. I find western media only tells us when Israel is attacked. It ignores when Israel does the attacking. Does a
young girl getting shot by an IDF sniper make headlines? How about
a reporter? And she had on a vest and helmet that said 'Press' and they still shot her in the head. And that is just a couple recent examples.
This war didn't start on the 7th, it started when Britain kicked Palestinians out and gave land to Jews. It's just been on lower volume from time to time.
bootlegga bootlegga:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
And it doesn't matter what Hamas did, that little girl in the hospital on the news yesterday did nothing. The children in that Kibbutz did nothing. The people at that music festival did nothing. Most of the west banks population are children under 18. Did they vote for Hamas? Is it their fault for not rising up and overthrowing Hamas?
I never said any civilian deserved what has happened over the past week, or will happen in the coming weeks - I was specifically addressing which party is ultimately to blame for yesterday's attack.
I believe that Israel should let foreign aid into Gaza, even if there is a risk that some of it gets to Hamas instead of civilians, but that's about as far as I feel Israel needs to go to address this crisis, which was all started with Hamas' brutal attack last week.
No Yom Kippur attack = no destroyed hospital.
That's pretty simple math as far as I'm concerned.
No, I wasn't accusing you of any of that. I was just enumerating my views, lest I get called ISIS loving Hamas liberal boot licker or something. Oh, wait . .
bootlegga bootlegga:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Hamas absolutely should pay for what they did on the 7th. But it's on the IDF and Israel to punish only Hamas, and not the innocents of Gaza. And I know they can't, or won't. So they are already fanning the flames of the next cycle because children experiencing the collective punishment will eventually grow up and harbour resentment.
I have little doubt that the IDF is doing their best to only punish Hamas, but it's tough to do when Hamas bases its rocket launchers next to schools, apartment buildings, and in this case, maybe even hospitals.
Back in 2006 I argued (With Shep IIRC) that if Israel wants to be seen as the good guy, it needs to do the tough things, like sending commandoes to take out Hamas rocket launchers surrounded by human shields. But I've come to the conclusion that that is impossible and the IDF just has to do its best to limit collateral damage in civilian areas. Lord knows Hamas doesn't care one iota about civilian casualties (except for propaganda purposes), either in Israel or Gaza.
I'm not really trying to convince you of anything. I think it was arguments like that which convinced me that I should broaden my view, because I too thought Israel could do no wrong and was justified in defending itself. But as I add more non-western media to my diet, I see both sides now.
Hamas absolutely is a douche factory for mixing into civilian populations. But then, Israel also controls everything and everyone that enters Gaza, so it's not like they can import steel to build tanks and planes. But Hamas also manages to sneak in enough to build thousands of missles, so denying humanitarian aid from Palestinians because there 'might' be weapons is an asinine position. It's just more collective punishment, and people can only take systemic unfairness before they snap.
bootlegga bootlegga:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Neither side is without fault, it only depends on how far back you want to consider.
There was a time when I saw this as a 50/50 split in terms of responsibility for the problems in the Middle East, but as I've gotten older, I've come to believe most of the fault lies with the Palestinians and Arab nations around Israel, all of which have large populations of people which want to see the Jews exterminated in a Second Holocaust. That simply cannot be allowed to happen IMHO.
In 1948, there was a fairly equitable two state solution, and 60 or 70 million Arabs decided to try and exterminate the Jews, but got their asses handed to them. Since then, it's been politically valuable for Arab states to keep those Palestinians as refugees or stuck in Gaza, rather than allow them to settle in their own countries or try to work out a peace agreement with Israel. Every decade or two since then, Israel's neighbours decide to try and take on the Israelis and get their asses kicked again and again. Israel isn't a great neighbour and does a lot of shitty things like bullying the Palestinians and occasionally bombing nuclear reactors in neighbouring countries, but that doesn't come close to justifying the horrific attack Hamas launched last week.
Nothing justifies that attack, but let's not forget that the fight isn't among equals. Israel controls all the borders, the sea, and the sky. They can cut food, fuel, water and electricity. Gazans can do nothing about that. And Israel is withholding these things until Hamas surrenders hostages, something the Gazans cannot control. It's collective punishment, which is a war crime. One crime does not absolve another.
bootlegga bootlegga:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I urge you to go back to that Humanist Report video and watching the interview from 22:00 minutes. The Israeli government official actually smiles at the thought of dead Gazan children. It's sick.
As I said a page or two ago, there are no reasonable people in the Middle East - Palestinians were rejoicing at slaughtered Israeli children and elderly people, and there are Israelis who feel the same about Palestinians in Gaza. It is an all-round shitshow and the sooner we can get some new two state solution, the better off everyone will be.
The mistake I used to make was collectivizing attitudes. Palestinians rejoiced, but in the West Bank, and not all of them. I have seem plenty of interviews with both Gazans and Israelis who do not condone anything going on. They only want peace.
CKA Moderator 
CKA Moderator 
Look up "Itamar Ben-Gvir" and try typing that again with a straight face.
