But the fact remains Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens, like American blacks before the civil rights era.
Bullshit....pure unadulterated bull shit. As I've pointed out in this thread, Israeli Arabs have sat in the Knesset since 1949, have been ministers in Israeli governments(Likud, Labour and Kadima), served as speakers and deputy speakers in the Knesset, and an Arab Israeli has even been acting President of Israel. This includes Sunni, Druze and Christian Arabs. Your comparison is laughable. Do your homework.
It's not a perfect society. Racism exists there like here in Canada. Ashkenazi look down on the Sephardi(often referring to them as SArabs) and Ethiopian Jews, just like WASPS/Nordics look down on Mediterraneans and Slavs. However, it's no where near what you would portray it as. Have you ever even been there?
2Cdo
CKA Uber
Posts: 11907
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:15 am
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Have you ever even been there?
No he hasn't, but he's read lots of pro-Palestinian blogs, news articles and NDP press releases!
Curtman
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:52 am
2Cdo 2Cdo:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Have you ever even been there?
No he hasn't, but he's read lots of pro-Palestinian blogs, news articles and NDP press releases!
Don't forget the Youtubes...
2Cdo
CKA Uber
Posts: 11907
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:56 am
Good to see an unbiased reporter. Good thing she's wearing the proper head cover before she gets beaten for dressing improperly.
stratos
CKA Uber
Posts: 18770
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:06 am
2Cdo 2Cdo:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Have you ever even been there?
No he hasn't, but he's read lots of pro-Palestinian blogs, news articles and NDP press releases!
Not to mention he slept at a Holiday Inn Express
Curtman
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 10:57 am
2Cdo 2Cdo:
Good to see an unbiased reporter. Good thing she's wearing the proper head cover before she gets beaten for dressing improperly.
The local CNN affiliate was probably busy covering local celebrity gossip.
$1:
We want the promised land. The entire promised land. ... The Arabs have rights on the basis of their community life, their cultural life. But they cannot be citizens of the land of Israel, or the state of Israel. ... If we let the Arabs have equal rights, then they will have many seats in the Knesset and this might endanger the future of the Jewish state. This land belongs to the Jews, and only to the Jews.
When my prime minister pledges allegiance to this fairy-tale worship on my behalf, it becomes my issue to fight against.
Last edited by Curtman on Sat May 11, 2013 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
What is that supposed to prove? A close up photo of a bank means everyone is living well and happy?
BeaverFever
CKA Uber
Posts: 15244
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:55 am
$1:
No, Israeli Arabs are not second class citizens. None of your links actually highlight how the Israeli government is placing restrictions or disenfranchising its Israeli Arab population. The Israeli Arab population might be akin to the African American population in the United States today, but state sanctioned discrimination against Israeli Arabs, creating "second class citizens" is not happening in Israel, no more than the United States is actively making the African American population second class citizens.
Bullshit. Obviously you didn't read those links. They have laws and more commonly they have routine practises that actively and purposely discriminate. Arabs can't build or renovate their houses without Isreali government approval and the government almost never gives approval. So due to population growth they build without permits and the Israeli government, in routine and scheduled manner bulldozes their homes, sometimes building Jewish settlements on the site. Laws allow Jews to refuse Arabs from living in their communities. Yeah, the US does that to blacks all the time. The highways and transit routes detour around Arab towns but stop in smaller Jewish ones. Isreali Arab communities receive only a fraction of the necessary funding for basic services and infrastructure and so go without as a result.
$1:
'Israeli Arabs have no choice but to build illegally' HAARETZ Fadi Eyadat | Jul.29, 2010 | 12:52 PM
Israel's Arabs are forced to build illegal housing due to the government's refusal to recognize many of their communities as official towns or to grant them permits for legal construction, according to a study released by the Dirasat - Arab Center for Law and Policy.
The dozens of structures Israel razed earlier this week in the Bedouin town of Arkaib are among the 45,000 illegal constructions in unrecognized villages in the Negev. According to Knesset figures, some 1,500 structures like these are built annually in unrecognized villages.
The Dirasat study concludes that this phenomenon will continue for years as a result of the obstacles imposed by Israel's planning committees.
...The Dirasat report, which was conducted by attorney Kais Nasser of Hebrew University's law faculty, is one of the most comprehensive studies in Israel examining the reasons for the high rate of illegal Arab construction.
Partial data from the study indicates that the number of Arabs in Israel has multiplied by seven since the state was established in 1948, but their municipal communities take up only 2.5 percent of state land.
Some 1,000 Jewish settlements have been established since 1948, says the study, but not a single Arab town aside from the seven Bedouin communities consolidated for residents that has previously been scattered across the Negev.
"The Arab citizen in Israel does not suffer from a 'syndrome' or find pleasure in illegal construction," said Nasser. "Like any citizen of the state, the Arab citizen would build legally if he were guaranteed within a planning framework that enabled him to receive a permit."
As I've pointed out in this thread, Israeli Arabs have sat in the Knesset since 1949, have been ministers in Israeli governments(Likud, Labour and Kadima), served as speakers and deputy speakers in the Knesset, and an Arab Israeli has even been acting President of Israel. This includes Sunni, Druze and Christian Arabs. Your comparison is laughable. Do your homework.
YOUR agument is laughable and a red herring. So what that Jewish parties have had sypathetic arab individuals who have help advance Jewish party agendas??? Islamist parties that oppress women have females championing them. Must mean they don't oppress women right? US Confederate army had Black soldiers, some volunteers. Must mean they were pro-black. Saddam Hussien's Deputy PM was Christin, therefore irrefutable proof that Muslims and Chistians were equal in Iraq right? The telling fact is that no Arab party has ever been part of any Israeli government coalition. Ever. And every Israeli government has been a coalition of many parties.
$1:
Have you ever even been there?
Another Red Herring. You think being a tourist somewhere automatically makes you informed about how the various elements of society live? Have you ever been to North Korea or used crack cocaine? For all you know both are amazing and have no right to discuss them then right?. Dennis Rodman has been to NK, makes him an expert on the lives of its citizens right?
$1:
No he hasn't, but he's read lots of pro-Palestinian blogs, news articles and NDP press releases!
Nice ad-hominem attack, evidence that you have no argument of your own to contribute. And that you think Israel's flagship (Jewish) newspapers, the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz are "pro-Palestinian blogs" only backs that up. Go troll elsewhere.
commanderkai
CKA Super Elite
Posts: 7835
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:12 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
commanderkai commanderkai:
No, Israeli Arabs are not second class citizens. None of your links actually highlight how the Israeli government is placing restrictions or disenfranchising its Israeli Arab population. The Israeli Arab population might be akin to the African American population in the United States today, but state sanctioned discrimination against Israeli Arabs, creating "second class citizens" is not happening in Israel, no more than the United States is actively making the African American population second class citizens.
Bullshit. Obviously you didn't read those links.
Let's go through your links, then. Let's find this evidence that you think you found that Israel is somehow making the Israeli Arabs second class citizens today.
It starts by describing past inequalities, which I admit happened, and they ended soon after the Six Day War. Fine. No Western country has a flawless past in this regard with minorities.
Oh, but then you cherry pick the article, ignoring how Israeli Arabs are able to obtain higher education, and successful careers in Israeli companies. Fine, whatever, I'm not surprised.
Here's the article's first alleged discrimination against Israeli Arabs:
The article The article:
Israel does not draft its Palestinian citizens into the army. It does not relieve them of the duty of service either. According to law, they are obligated to serve, but the army does not draft them, for obvious and understandable reasons. Yet, the army does draft Israel’s Druse citizens and most of them have serious claims against the discrimination that they face even after serving in the army.
So, Israel is treating the Arab population as second class citizens because they don't draft Israeli Arabs for legitimate security reasons, even though technically they should be. Yeah, pre-Civil Rights era United States right here.
But hey, let's continue and highlight the second supposed element of Israeli Arabs being second class citizens, in the article's view:
The article The article:
Israel’s Palestinian citizens are law abiding and are struggling for an equal share in their role of citizenship. More than 50% of the Palestinian citizens will probably not exercise their right to vote in the coming election and that is a grave error on their part. That is a vote of no confidence in Israel’s democracy, and that is a marked failure of Israel’s democracy.
So they choose to not take part in voting. Shit, we can make the same argument about 50% of all Canadians and Americans too, except those Canadians and Americans aren't second class citizens for not voting in their respective elections. Their motivation for not voting is of no consequence to the fact that they have the perfectly legitimate right to engage in the political process. The article theorizes that its a vote of no confidence, and I could add in the perfectly legitimate theory of them just not being willing to take time out of their day to go vote.
This election issue comes up a few more times. The best is for last though.
It talks about how Arabs generally are more harshly punished and more commonly convicted compared to Jewish Israelis. Again, the same can basically be said about minorities in the United States, and yet African and Hispanic Americans are not second class citizens. There is certainly discrimination that exists (something neither I nor Shep ever argued otherwise), and certainly the Israeli Arab population receives the brunt of it, but again, this does not make them second class citizens through overt government policy and law.
Again, like with article 3, the article has no evidence of the Israeli government overtly making the Arabs second class citizens. The opposite, in fact, it actually states the Israeli government subsidizes Israeli Arabs' wages, whatever that means, and that the Israeli government set targets for hiring Israeli Arabs in the civil service, but was slow to meet its goals. Second class citizens? Hardly. Discrimination faced in the workplace by private employers again highlights that discrimination exists in Israel, but not that Israeli Arabs are second class citizens.
Out of the five Israeli articles, only one statement can actually be used to describe Israeli Arabs as second class citizens, and that is Israeli Arabs are not drafted into the IDF even though they are technically supposed to be. This is a far stretch from labeling Israeli Arabs as second class citizens like African Americans in the pre-Civil Rights era United States.
Now, to continue wasting my time, onto the non-Israeli articles...
More than two-thirds of those questioned by Dialog, an opinion pollster, said they would oppose suffrage for the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank were it to be annexed to Israel.
Nearly three-quarters -- 74 per cent -- say they also support a system of segregated roads for Palestinians and Israelis in the West Bank, although the majority say they would view such a policy as “necessary” rather than “good”.
Hypothetical situation that doesn't exist yet, and the article addresses the improbable chance of the West Bank being annexed happening.
$1:
The survey found that a majority of the Jewish public -- 59 per cent -- say they want a system that gives preference to Jews applying for civil service jobs. Arabs, who constitute 20 per cent of the Israeli population, complain such a policy unofficially exists already.
Just under half of respondents, 49 per cent, said they want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones, while 42 per cent said they did not want to live in the same building as Arabs and did not want their children to go to schools that also admit Arabs.
Again, Israeli Jews are rather racist against Israeli Arabs, but Israel's government does not overtly create a situation that Israeli Arabs are second class citizens. We can talk about root causes as to why Israeli Jews might not like Arabs all that much. It probably starts with a "w", and ends with "ar", and starts with a "t" and ends with "errorism".
Basically, Israeli Arabs aren't engaging in the political process, even though they have every right to. They're generally not included in the formation of governments, and they wouldn't accept even if they were offered because the Arab parties in existence want to make some moral stand about Israel's treatment with the Palestinians. However, and this is more interesting:
$1:
Many Arab voters despair of their own politicians for focusing on Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians, whereas 92%, according to Mr Ghanem’s survey, put welfare, discrimination and rising crime as their main concerns. Arab-Israeli politicians also seem prone to infighting. The three Arab-led parties, which won 11 seats in the last election, say they stand for competing Islamist, nationalist and communist ideologies. But clans and personality clashes probably have more to do with it. If Arab Israelis all voted for a single list, turning out at the same rate as Jews, they would have Israel’s second-largest party.
That's certainly interesting, isn't it? So, the Jewish Israeli parties don't really campaign for the Israeli Arab vote because they perceive them as being supportive of the Palestinians and they can't exactly create a campaign issue on that. The Israeli Arabs do campaign on being pro-Palestinian, making moral stands and having lots of infighting, and the average Israeli Arab are just wanting things to better their lot in life.
They should use their political freedoms as Israeli citizens to form a political party, instead of letting the mouthpieces of the three current Israeli Arab parties to argue their way to further irrelevance in Israeli politics.
The first issue addressed is that the Israeli government legalized "admissions committees" (like those seen in New York City co-ops) that might be used to discriminate blacks, gays, Christians, Muslims, Israeli Arabs, single women, and secular families from moving into small towns in specific parts of Israel. Said committees are generally operated privately. Again, certainly discrimination can occur (and this example applies to more than just Israeli Arabs), but then that would mean every minority in Israel are second class citizens.
Second issue is that the Israel will be imposing fines on towns and state funded organizations that commemorate "Nakba Day", or to commemorate the catastrophe of Israel becoming a state. Most interestingly, Israel doesn't exactly make it illegal, but towns and organizations that celebrate "Nakba Day" will be fined for using, in part or in full, state funds to commemorate the founding of Israel.
In summary, or the tl;dr paragraph
You wasted my time. The articles you linked to proved nothing. The one example that can, without a doubt, establish Israeli Arabs as being second class citizens through overt government policy, that would make it comparable to pre-Civil Rights era United States is the fact that Israeli Arabs are actively excluded from being conscripted into the IDF, even though they should be. The rest point to either discrimination and prejudice against Israeli Arabs, which nobody denies, but is also not state sanctioned. You're just making yourself look like a fool if you keep arguing about "apartheid!" or "second class citizens!" when it's not the case.
What is that supposed to prove? A close up photo of a bank means everyone is living well and happy?
Did you take a good look at that photo? Funny how Palestine has been supposedly blockaded so completely for DECADES now with hardly any food or medicine getting in, yet they sure had no problem recieving quality construction materials, new vehicles, etc etc. Sure beats your gay, little pictograms.
BeaverFever
CKA Uber
Posts: 15244
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:21 pm
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Did you take a good look at that photo? Funny how Palestine has been supposedly blockaded so completely for DECADES now with hardly any food or medicine getting in, yet they sure had no problem recieving quality construction materials, new vehicles, etc etc. Sure beats your gay, little pictograms.
Yeah, because we all know banks havr zero money, are last in line for resources and have no economic or political influence. If a bank has a building with apparent curb appeal from a tight-shot photo, it must mean that the local residents are without want and all local services are top notch. Gimme a break PA9 you can do better.
BeaverFever
CKA Uber
Posts: 15244
Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:11 pm
commanderkai commanderkai:
Let's go through your links, then. Let's find this evidence that you think you found that Israel is somehow making the Israeli Arabs second class citizens today. Oh, but then you cherry pick the article, ignoring how Israeli Arabs are able to obtain higher education, and successful careers in Israeli companies. Fine, whatever, I'm not surprised...military draft...
You'll notice that the thrust of the article is about using a draft for civil service to address the issue of increasing - not decreasing Israeli Arab alienation despite past achievements. You'll also notice that although the article uses a "we've made great strides" intro, it doesn't quantify those accomplishments like successful carreers because as the other articles indicate, those metrics are shockingly weak to the point of meaningnessles, e.g. only 1.3 percent of Arab grads get jobs in their fields.
$1:
So they choose to not take part in voting.
It's raised as evidence of increased alienation, that is, a symptom of the failures of government.
$1:
Ah well shit, I need to pay to see the opinion piece. Not happening
Weird, it was free yesterday. Ah well.
$1:
Article 3: It talks about how Arabs generally are more harshly punished and more commonly convicted compared to Jewish Israelis....can basically be said about minorities in the United States
Perhaps, but you have to take this into account with the totality (will add further comment in my tl;dr closing)
$1:
Article 4:Again, like with article 3, the article has no evidence of the Israeli government overtly making the Arabs second class citizens. The opposite, in fact, it actually states the Israeli government subsidizes Israeli Arabs' wages, whatever that means, and that the Israeli government set targets for hiring Israeli Arabs in the civil service, but was slow to meet its goals. Second class citizens? Hardly. Discrimination faced in the workplace by private employers again highlights that discrimination exists in Israel, but not that Israeli Arabs are second class citizens.
Well I suppose the bureau that has to put out ads saying "nothings wrong with hiring Arabs" you can call that progress...I havent seen any ads in the US reminding Americans that "nothings wrong with hiring blacks" so I don't think you can say these 2 nations are on par. Also, the US doesn't have a problem with educated blacks not being able to find work like Israel does, the US problem is that too many blacks don't obtain the education in the first place - different situation altogether. I get your point that the state can only do so much to change societal values over time but it's 2013 for god's sake. Also see more in my tl;dr
Dammit, another one that worked yesterday. You're getting off easy!
$1:
Poll states stuff...improbable chance of the West Bank being annexed happening.
well the old "you can use a poll to show whatever you want" ploy I guess. Also the article says that with Half a Million Jewish settlers now in the West Bank, Israeli annexation or at least the status quo may be inevitable. And the status quo really is defacto annexation anyways.
$1:
They should use their political freedoms as Israeli citizens to form a political party, instead of letting the mouthpieces of the three current Israeli Arab parties to argue their way to further irrelevance in Israeli politics.
Point is, democratic goverments have a mandate to serve all citizens, including the people who didn't vote for them. The example of the crime-ridden town with no police and busted streets shows they get treat like second class citizens.
The first issue addressed is that the Israeli government legalized "admissions committees"...but then that would mean every minority in Israel are second class citizens.
First, the difference is that this applies to TOWNS, not co-ops or condo buildings. Towns. And they are active in more than 500 of them.
$1:
Second issue is that the Israel will be imposing fines on towns and state funded organizations that commemorate "Nakba Day", or to commemorate the catastrophe of Israel becoming a state. Most interestingly, Israel doesn't exactly make it illegal, but towns and organizations that celebrate "Nakba Day" will be fined for using, in part or in full, state funds to commemorate the founding of Israel.
Well I guess we shold call Manitoba about Louis Riel day. Also American indians need to be told to stop commemorations of Little Big Horn and the Massacre at Wounded Knee, since those are unpatriotic. Or perhaps Japanese Canadians shouldn't be allowed to commemorate the deaths at Hiroshima because it is related to VJ day and therefore unpatriotic. "Nakba" is understanbably a period they would want to commemorate as it is when many of them lost their lands and possesions and were displaced.
In summary, or the tl;dr paragraph
I noticed that yet again you avoid discussion of the eally aggregious items, anythihing to do with the Occupied Terrirories and Jewish settlers, and things like the zealous bulldozing Arab/Palestinian homes,diversion of water, detouring of hiways, bus routes, etc. I suppose in the absence of these, the rest of the items discussed above could be dismissed as just socio-economic legacy of past injustices long ago righted, and in some cases you may be right. I don't think the Israeli government has one mind - as you know it is always a coalition of parties, some of which are very hawkish, hateful religious rightwingers, and some are very left-wing and pacifist. Likewise, some government agencies and departments have their own institutional cultures that may be more harlding toward Arabs than others. But here's the thing: these items are inter-related. The social imblances that are incidental and unintended and those that are deliberate (e.g. settlements, bulldozing)are occuring in the same time and space.
Second failure in comparison is that the US is not a "white state" but Israel is a "Jewish state" and this is a subtantial difference. The latter requires the state, in the course of its routine daily administration, to identify who is a Jew and who is not and which towns are Jewish and which are not and then act accordingly...it is not a colour-blind system by design. A US government official, for example, would not automatically know whether a housing permit applicant was white or black and while there are certainly predominant demographics from one neighbourhood to another in the US, there is no such thing as a "Black town" and a "white town". The fact that an Israeli governemnt office has to put out PSAs adivsing that "its ok to hire an Arab" in the year 2013 suggest to me that its more than just individual prejudice, that the government has dragged its feet on endorsiing these messages in the past, especailly given that so much of teh Jewish population has lived abroad in North America and Europe and should have a base understanding of egalitarian concepts. I think they get mixed messages from their leaders and instituations, which creates a permissive environment for overt and hidden discrimination. And as you admit that racism is widespread for various historical reasons, would it not follow tha that these widespread attitudes would be reflected in teh governments they elect to some extent?
FieryVulpine
Forum Elite
Posts: 1348
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:25 am
Given how Muslims treat minorities in their own nations, Israel is a saint in comparison. Considering how Muslims in Eygpt outright terrorize the Coptic Christian minority by arresting them on trumped charges, destroying their churches, and outright kidnapping their girls and women to forcibly convert them. The same thing happens in Pakistan with their Christian and Hindu minorities. Much of Iraq's Christian fled the country after the fall of the Hussein regime. A repeat of that will likely happen in Syria if and when the Assad regime falls, and do not get me started on Iran and Nigeria.
Bottom Line: I extend little sympathy to the Palestinians because on the whole their Arab/Muslim "brothers" do the exact same thing they accuse Israel of doing, but get a free pass from the BDS movement in the West because they are the Left's favorite "pet" minority.
Unsound
CKA Super Elite
Posts: 5233
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:06 am
I don't want to get involved in the larger debate because I honestly don't know enough to contribute, and you guys are doing a great job as it is.
But this argument...
FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:
Given how Muslims treat minorities in their own nations, Israel is a saint in comparison. Considering how Muslims in Eygpt outright terrorize the Coptic Christian minority by arresting them on trumped charges, destroying their churches, and outright kidnapping their girls and women to forcibly convert them. The same thing happens in Pakistan with their Christian and Hindu minorities. Much of Iraq's Christian fled the country after the fall of the Hussein regime. A repeat of that will likely happen in Syria if and when the Assad regime falls, and do not get me started on Iran and Nigeria.
Bottom Line: I extend little sympathy to the Palestinians because on the whole their Arab/Muslim "brothers" do the exact same thing they accuse Israel of doing, but get a free pass from the BDS movement in the West because they are the Left's favorite "pet" minority.
Can we not all agree already that 2 wrongs don't make a right?
Conservative corruption is not ok just because the Liberals were corrupt first. It's not ok for Israel to treat minorities badly just because minorities get treated badly elsewhere. Particularly as Israels defenders generally try to place Israel on a moral high ground in the area.
commanderkai
CKA Super Elite
Posts: 7835
Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 10:26 am
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
You'll notice that the thrust of the article is about using a draft for civil service to address the issue of increasing - not decreasing Israeli Arab alienation despite past achievements. You'll also notice that although the article uses a "we've made great strides" intro, it doesn't quantify those accomplishments like successful carreers because as the other articles indicate, those metrics are shockingly weak to the point of meaningnessles, e.g. only 1.3 percent of Arab grads get jobs in their fields.
Which is not a sign of second class citizenship status. Greater alienation is certainly an issue that Israel will have to contend with, but again, the same can be said about major minority communities in Canada and the United States.
$1:
It's raised as evidence of increased alienation, that is, a symptom of the failures of government.
Again, not a sign of second class citizenship. Alienation with politics is not unique to Israel, nor is it unique to Israeli Arabs.
$1:
Well I suppose the bureau that has to put out ads saying "nothings wrong with hiring Arabs" you can call that progress...I havent seen any ads in the US reminding Americans that "nothings wrong with hiring blacks" so I don't think you can say these 2 nations are on par. Also, the US doesn't have a problem with educated blacks not being able to find work like Israel does, the US problem is that too many blacks don't obtain the education in the first place - different situation altogether. I get your point that the state can only do so much to change societal values over time but it's 2013 for god's sake. Also see more in my tl;dr
This is also a society that has been at war with Arabs for close to 70 years now, which might be a factor as to why Israeli Jews aren't trusting of the Israeli Arab minority. The fact that the Israeli government is actively trying to combat this mindset, rather than encouraging it and coddling it through policy and law basically defeats any purpose of second class citizenship.
$1:
well the old "you can use a poll to show whatever you want" ploy I guess. Also the article says that with Half a Million Jewish settlers now in the West Bank, Israeli annexation or at least the status quo may be inevitable. And the status quo really is defacto annexation anyways.
Incorrect, since Israel would not annex the whole West Bank, but rather where it's settlements already are. Israeli annexation of those settlements is a possibility, but the whole West Bank is highly unlikely, which was addressed in that same two articles.
It's not really a ploy, either, considering, even if the poll accurately reflects the values of the Israelis, the questions that you would view as a sign of apartheid or second class citizenship were completely hypothetical.
$1:
Point is, democratic goverments have a mandate to serve all citizens, including the people who didn't vote for them. The example of the crime-ridden town with no police and busted streets shows they get treat like second class citizens.
This assumes they're not served by another police station in the next town over. This isn't Canada, where towns can be separated by hundreds of miles, but Israel, where you can reach Tel Aviv from Jerusalem in an hour. But, admittedly, I don't know how Israel distributes it's police services across the country.
$1:
Well I guess we shold call Manitoba about Louis Riel day. Also American indians need to be told to stop commemorations of Little Big Horn and the Massacre at Wounded Knee, since those are unpatriotic. Or perhaps Japanese Canadians shouldn't be allowed to commemorate the deaths at Hiroshima because it is related to VJ day and therefore unpatriotic. "Nakba" is understanbably a period they would want to commemorate as it is when many of them lost their lands and possesions and were displaced.
The ones IN Israel, as in, the ones who weren't displaced, since they're likely the descendants of the ones who stayed. They could celebrate it in the West Bank, and Israel probably does not give two flying fucks.
I wouldn't be surprised if Israel doesn't exactly want "Happy Holocaust Day" celebrated either within Israel. They know the rest of the Arab world loves the Holocaust as much as they deny it, but hey, Israel's a sovereign country, and can fine towns and state sponsored organizations for treating the founding of Israel as being a sorrowful day.
$1:
I noticed that yet again you avoid discussion of the eally aggregious items, anythihing to do with the Occupied Terrirories and Jewish settlers, and things like the zealous bulldozing Arab/Palestinian homes,diversion of water, detouring of hiways, bus routes, etc. I suppose in the absence of these, the rest of the items discussed above could be dismissed as just socio-economic legacy of past injustices long ago righted, and in some cases you may be right.
Because they have nothing to do with Israeli Arabs being second class citizens within Israel, which is what you were claiming. The rest is another discussion entirely, and attempting to merge both populations into one is just twisting the issue. You said Israeli Arabs are second class citizens of the likes of blacks in the pre-Civil Rights era United States. That was your statement.
I addressed points that relate to how Israeli Arabs are treated, nothing more, nothing less. So again, there are one pure example of Israeli Arabs being actively placed in a situation where they are second class citizens, and that is the fact that Israeli Arabs are not conscripted into the IDF for security reasons, even though Israeli law states they are supposed to conscripting Israeli Arabs.
The other, smaller tidbit about the police station in a town near Tel Aviv might be evidence of another, but it might just be how Israel distributes it's government infrastructure.
The alienation, and the discrimination that Israeli Arabs face is certainly an issue with Israel, something that I, and Shep stated clearly. Their society is not flawless. However, they are not examples of Israeli Arabs being second class citizens.
$1:
I don't think the Israeli government has one mind - as you know it is always a coalition of parties, some of which are very hawkish, hateful religious rightwingers, and some are very left-wing and pacifist. Likewise, some government agencies and departments have their own institutional cultures that may be more harlding toward Arabs than others. But here's the thing: these items are inter-related. The social imblances that are incidental and unintended and those that are deliberate (e.g. settlements, bulldozing)are occuring in the same time and space.
Of course, but for the most part, the water stealing and house bulldozing is occurring in the Palestinian territories, and not Israel proper. Big distinction.
$1:
Second failure in comparison is that the US is not a "white state" but Israel is a "Jewish state" and this is a subtantial difference. The latter requires the state, in the course of its routine daily administration, to identify who is a Jew and who is not and which towns are Jewish and which are not and then act accordingly...it is not a colour-blind system by design. A US government official, for example, would not automatically know whether a housing permit applicant was white or black and while there are certainly predominant demographics from one neighbourhood to another in the US, there is no such thing as a "Black town" and a "white town". The fact that an Israeli governemnt office has to put out PSAs adivsing that "its ok to hire an Arab" in the year 2013 suggest to me that its more than just individual prejudice, that the government has dragged its feet on endorsiing these messages in the past, especailly given that so much of teh Jewish population has lived abroad in North America and Europe and should have a base understanding of egalitarian concepts. I think they get mixed messages from their leaders and instituations, which creates a permissive environment for overt and hidden discrimination. And as you admit that racism is widespread for various historical reasons, would it not follow tha that these widespread attitudes would be reflected in teh governments they elect to some extent?
Which, again, you can argue that the Israeli government didn't do enough in the past to cope with rising tensions between Israeli, non-Jewish Arabs and Israeli Jews. But this is also looking at it through hindsight, and through the relative stability that Israel is now facing, compared to the much more turbulent times it has faced a little over a decade ago.
Israel, as of right now, is quite possibly as it's safest. It's able to knock down rocket attacks from the territories and minimize loss of life, and the fortifications it built along the border prevents Palestinian terrorists from conducting terrorism within Israel proper. A little over a decade ago, when suicide bombings were incredibly common, Israel's non-Arab populace had a very distrusting view of both the Palestinians, and the Israeli Arabs who seemingly sympathized with them. There were concerns of a fifth column, even, within Israel. The Israeli government didn't suppress Israeli Arab freedoms, however, but certainly the opinion of the private citizenry soured a great deal. Realistically, do you think any action by the Israeli government a decade ago would have changed the mindset of the Israeli people towards the Arab minority?
In my view, probably not. And, as much as the whole "black" town or "white" town sounds completely alien to us here in North America, that's honestly how the situation was long before Israel came into existence. Certainly the larger cities are more mixed, even with Arabs who are Jews, Druze, and Christian, but the small towns, many that have existed long before Israel's founding, are commonly homogenous.
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